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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Manhattans - Kiss & Say Goodbye
From: Tony
2. Re: Dick & Dee Dee
From: Bob Celli
3. Re: Beatles & Beach Boys / Influences
From: Peter Kearns
4. Re: Stereo 45s
From: Tony
5. Re: stalker rock
From: Tom Taber
6. "Send In The Clowns" as Worst Song?
From: Chris
7. Re: Beatles & Beach Boys / Influences
From: James Botticelli
8. Re: Bi question
From: JD Doyle
9. Re: Bi question
From: Rat Pfink
10. Re: Bi question
From: Rich
11. Re: (Why) Brackets?
From: Rodney Rawlings
12. Re: Happy Together on film
From: Phil Chapman
13. Re: Peggy Lee - "Pete Kelly's Blues"
From: Chris
14. Re: William Shatner
From: Rodney Rawlings
15. Re: worst 45 pressing
From: MopTop Mike
16. Re: worst 45 pressing
From: Mike McKay
17. Re: Avantis
From: Steve Grant
18. Re: Stereo 45s (and LPs)
From: Mike McKay
19. Re: Manhattans - Kiss & Say Goodbye
From: Joe Nelson
20. Re: worst 45 pressing
From: Joe Nelson
21. Beatles Strange but True
From: Paul Bryant
22. Re: Brian Wilson's last greatest song.....
From: Bob Hanes
23. The Rag Dolls
From: George
24. Mike Randle in "Please Phil Spector"
From: Kevin
25. Styrene vs.plastic 45's
From: steveo
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:27:58 -0000
From: Tony
Subject: Re: Manhattans - Kiss & Say Goodbye
Peter Kerans asked:
> Is the x-rated version of Kiss And Say Goodbye the full version
> as opposed to the single just being an edit of it? Or is it a
> totally different recording?
I believe it to be the full version but with an extended beginning.
The lable copy offers the time for the A side as 4:26, and for the B
side as 5:11. I have no way of checking the timing for the regular
issue, so hope that the above will help.
Tony
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:32:29 -0000
From: Bob Celli
Subject: Re: Dick & Dee Dee
Phil Milstein;
> "Where Have All The Good Times Gone" -- my all-time favorite
> Scopitone! Man, what I wouldn't have given for the opportunity
> to sit and watch that with Dick himself, and to ask him a
> question or two about its making. Talk about "politically
> incorrect" -- at one point in this amusement park clip, Dick
> picks up a shooting gallery rifle and fires away at a live girl
> frugging in a line with the tin duckies. If that girl, by the
> way, was not Melody Patterson, aka "Calamity Jane" of F Troop
> fame, it was her identical twin.
Phil,
You've just brought back some memories of that day to me! I
recall Dick saying "Oh my God!!" several times while he was
watching the tape! Fun times!
Bob Celli
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 14:39:01 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: Re: Beatles & Beach Boys / Influences
Alan Zweig wrote:
> I wonder if anyone here agrees with me that pop music as we know
> it, probably would have developed much the same way it has, even
> if there'd been no Beatles or Beach Boys.
Or Bill Haley, or Elvis, or Leiber and Stoller etc. But let us
consider that the thread goes back much further. Rock 'n' Roll
or 'pop' music or whatever you want to call it, in the grand scheme
of things, was an abomination; a poor mongrel relative to previous
musics. But nevertheless, it was a necessary path. It HAD to happen
socialogically.
Where did it begin? Well, in America, arguably with Stephen Foster
etc, leading to the blues. But how? Like the theory of evolution,
there's a missing link. So Bach gave us theory, and Mozart gave us
more colour, and Beethoven gave us more harmony, and Liszt gave us
more virtuosity. Where was there then to go?? They all went nuts
after that, with the extreme case being Arnold Schoenberg and his
seemingly pointless school of 12-tone (Though much brilliance has
been wrought within it).
After Liszt, the key component was Igor Stravinsky. In fact, I
believe it all ended in April 1913 with his Paris premiere of 'The
Rite Of Spring' (Or 'Le Sacre Du Printemps' ifya wanna get fussy.)
Don McLean was wrong.
Harmonically, music never progressed beyond that. But who cared?
Certainly not the western Europeans. Somehow, thanks to migration,
began a simultaneous and individual line of musical inspiration
within the new world; possibly the technical offspring of European
songwriters like the Schumanns for example (And others before them of
course).
Folk and blues happened naturally, but simultaneously along with the
more technical and so-called 'serious' musics which were peaking.
Music in general peaked before society did, let's face it. So in
order for the basic human race to continue on a path to maturity
(we're about 7 now by the way), we had to find something
entertainmentwise. Thus the 'pop' song proper was born. But the day
the 'pop' music died was probably the day Robert Johnson passed over.
Don was wrong twice.
So with a giant lurch, we were all suddenly on a new branch, never to
grow any leaves substantially different to what had come before.
SO.....the point I'm making is, pop would've developed somehow,
regardless. Whether we'd have the beauty of 'If I Fell' or the
grandeur of 'The Sun Ain't Gonna Shine Anymore', one can only
speculate about (Much like this post:-)).
But to suggest the music died at ANY point is really somewhat
snobbish; And I have no wish to break the tradition. So let me
declare that 'God Only Knows' was the last great piece of pop genius.
Nothing on 'Abbey Road' came close. So whether pop as we know it
would've come about? Who knows?
But WE know there was a Beatles and a Beach Boys. And how could it be
any other way!
Amen.
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 15:58:03 -0000
From: Tony
Subject: Re: Stereo 45s
Polydor released stereo singles, presumably in Germany, I believe in
the 50's. Unfortunately the lable has no year on it, but hopefully
some clever fellow can provide the info from the lable number -
Polydor 220 003.
This specific release was an instrumental version of Zambesi (spelt
Sambesi on the release - artist Erwin Halletz & Orch), a song that
was a hit in 1956 for Lou Busch.
Polydor 220 501 "No Can Do" - Erwin Halletz & Orch
Polydor 220 505 "Oho-Aha Cha Cha" - Kurt Edelhagen & Orch.
The Cha Cha was big in 1958 so it is possible that Polydor
introduced stereo 45s first ?
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:15:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Taber
Subject: Re: stalker rock
Phil Milstein wrote:
> Reminds me to ask if anyone knows of a Wayne Newton song about
> a Peeping Tom, and if so what it's called.
Would that be "Daddy Don't You Watch So Fast"?
Tom Taber
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:27:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris
Subject: "Send In The Clowns" as Worst Song?
John Lang wrote:
> Yes, absolutely! MacArthur Park has always been and probably
> always will be #1 on my list of all-time worst songs, closely
> followed by Send In The Clowns.
I've always liked "Send In The Clowns" a lot -- although I can
understand how it has the capacity to make people cringe.
Sondheim has written about how "Clowns" was created for someone,
Glynis Johns in "A Little Night Music," who was unable to sustain
long phrases, and how when "better" singers attempted the song it
didn't seem to work as well. I think that part of the problem is
bringing Big Voices or Big Emotions to "Clowns," which can make
it sound awfully labored.
Chris
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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 10:56:23 -0500
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Beatles & Beach Boys / Influences
David Mirich wrote:
> Would someone else have discovered AC electricity had it not been
> for Tesla? Would the secrets of the universe have ever been
> unlocked without Einstein's vision and genius? Would controlled
> flight have happened without the Wrights? Of course, but at a
> later time! Just as the first cave man who used fire was just the
> first to do it. But oftentimes, the course of life for countless
> generations and millions of people would have been diminished
> waiting for the next genius to come along and advance the species.
Back to the Great Man theory of history as Alan said. The Beatles
were the band that ended up at the top of the heap of the Beat
movement in Liverpool and probably London and every other city in
England. The people on this list there can further clarify. They
came from a competitive environment where the kind of pop we discuss
on this list was distilled and presented in a more Elvis/Eddie
Cochran-influenced arranging and playing style. Like in the 70's when
previously known songs were discofied, and to a lesser extent, but no
less significantly, punk rock songs by The Ramones and Sex Pistols
were given easy listening/lounge arrangements, this was a new
sensibility, already in the air, and the prize went to the Beatles.
That they had melodic sensibility and could turn a lyric was their
collective gift, but that came about largely after the beats made
them kings of the hill, top of the pops. And who can deny that the
Beach Boys were Spectrofied? Without that Spectrofication they would
have been Chuck Berry's red-headed step-cousin. My .02. Thanks for
the space
Jimmy Botticelli
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Message: 8
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:34:07 -0000
From: JD Doyle
Subject: Re: Bi question
No, Glenn, I don't think "Lola" fits as a bi song, it's pretty clear.
But here's some "trivia" about the real Lola. That's right, there
really was a drag queen named Lola. One of my artist friends was part
of the punk/glam scene in NY & London in those days and knew her, and
said she was very horse-faced and by no means "pretty," and could not
be mistaken for a RG ("real girl") by anyone. So, I guess Lou is
welcome to his own tastes...:)
JD Doyle
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Message: 9
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:34:00 -0500
From: Rat Pfink
Subject: Re: Bi question
Glenn wrote:
> a lot of people don't realize that the mystery of the
> gender of the song's subject finally IS answered in
> the song:
>
> "Well I'm not the world's most masculine man
> But I know what I am and I'm glad I'm a man
> And so is Lola..."
Nope, the question of gender isn't answered at all. Ray Davies'
lyrics are ambiguous enough that "And so is Lola" can be
interpreted either as 1) Lola is also a man -or- 2) Lola is
also glad he's a man.
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Message: 10
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 11:38:37 EST
From: Rich
Subject: Re: Bi question
Another Aussie song also by Jimmy & the Boys - "I'm not like
everyone else".
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:43:10 -0000
From: Rodney Rawlings
Subject: Re: (Why) Brackets?
Ted T. wrote:
> They believed that tacking on an extra phrase would help to
> differentiate their songs and thus make accounting and auditing
> more accurate.
To me too. That's an angle I didn't think of!
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:45:40 -0000
From: Phil Chapman
Subject: Re: Happy Together on film
Bill George:
> the beginning of the movie featured The Turtle's version of
> Happy Together while Jamie Lee Curtis (the mom) was getting
> ready in the morning, then switched to an alternative rock
> version to contrast the daughter's morning ritual.
Some mention should go to Wong Kar-Wai's award-winning
Chinese film "Happy Together", about a gay male couple
who opt for a fresh start away from their homeland to be,
indeed, happy together.... with the inevitable consequences.
WKW takes the wish-fulfilment theme of HT one stage further.
The soundtrack includes a rather tame version of "Happy
Together" performed by the score's composer, Danny Chung.
http://tinyurl.com/yqh8s
http://users.aol.com/aleong1631/happy.html
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Message: 13
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 08:48:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris
Subject: Re: Peggy Lee - "Pete Kelly's Blues"
TD wrote:
> In the Disney's "Lady & The Tramp." Peggy Lee sings "He's A
> Tramp." In Warner's "The Girl Can't Help It," Edmund O'Brien's
> role as Marty 'Fats' Murdock, the mobster who wants his girl
> friend (Jayne Mansfield) to be a singing star, is a burlesque
> of the gangster role O'Brien played in "Pete Kelly's Blues";
> the comical Fats Murdock is a parody of Fran McCarg, the
> ruthless character who destroyed Peggy Lee in "Pete Kelly's
> Blues." On a late night talk show (maybe it was Steve Allen's
> 'Tonight'?), I saw Peggy Lee say that she sometimes thought her
> role as Rose in "Pete Kelly's Blues" hindered her career. She
> said many people who watched her playing the part of an
> alcoholic night club singer supposed that they were seeing the
> real Peggy Lee and not a performance.
Also sounds a lot like the Doris Day/James Cagney relationship in
"Love Me Or Leave Me." ("Love Me" -- released May, 1955. "Blues"
-- July, 1955; "Help It" -- 1956.) Perhaps such stories were in
the air at the time?
Chris
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:56:49 -0000
From: Rodney Rawlings
Subject: Re: William Shatner
After hearing William Shatner's "singing" for the first time, at
http://www.miserablemelodies.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/miserabl/search.pl?search=shatner
I tend to think he was doing it for laughs. (He has no hestitation
to poke fun at himself, as we know--at least nowadays.)
What do you think? Does anyone have any background or information
that would support or undermine this conclusion? Has Shatner ever
stated he was being facetious?
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Message: 15
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 16:59:02 -0000
From: MopTop Mike
Subject: Re: worst 45 pressing
steveo wrote:
> A 45 that gets my vote for the worst pressing is the Elektra 45
> compatible mono/stereo 1967 release of the Doors "Light My Fire".
> It sounded good for the first 25 plays or so, but wore out
> qickly, and the grooves were so close together it started to eat
> up the needle pretty quickly also becoming white as snow. Most of
> these were cheap styrene plastic.
Quite a few of the Mercury label pressings sound like total crap -
swishy, noisy, even on unplayed 45's I bought from warehouses, rack
jobber lots, etc.
I recall one 45 having been mastered improperly that went on to
become a hit (well, #43 in Billboard, if I recall...) "Give A Damn"
by Spanky and Our Gang. Went thru at least a dozen copies and they
all played like they were worn out. Can't recall why this occured.
Mike
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:03:14 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: worst 45 pressing
steveo wrote:
> A 45 that gets my vote for the worst pressing is the Elektra 45
> compatible mono/stereo 1967 release of the Doors "Light My Fire".
> It sounded good for the first 25 plays or so, but wore out
> qickly, and the grooves were so close together it started to eat
> up the needle pretty quickly also becoming white as snow. Most of
> these were cheap styrene plastic.
There was a period of time c. 1965-67 when the Epic label in America
used horribly cheap material for its singles. Seems like most
anything by The Yardbirds, DC 5, etc., would wear out very quickly
and turn to almost unlistenable mush.
Then someone must have seen the light, because I can recall Donovan's
"Wear Your Love Like Heaven" being a quantum leap forward in terms of
great (and durable) sound from a single.
Mike
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:05:36 -0500
From: Steve Grant
Subject: Re: Avantis
Dan Hughes:
> And what IS an Avanti?
The Avanti was and is a totally cool sports car. IIRC, it was
originally made by Studebaker, then spun off and manufactured
by Avanti Corp. You can read about it here:
http://www.avantimotors.com/
The brand name has also been swiped for use by a condom
manufacturer.
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:15:06 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Stereo 45s (and LPs)
Clark wrote:
> I remember bypassing a shrinkwrapped new mono "Magical Mystery
> Tour" because my brother had the stereo copy and I was looking
> for stuff I didn't have access to. Don't remember what I ended
> up buying (I'm thinking it was the "Good Timin" Lp by Jimmy
> Jones--it was old, I loved the song, and thought I'd never see
> it again and I still have it!), but I just read in the new
> Discoveries that a sealed mono copy of "Sgt Pepper" sold on ebay
> recently for $1850. OUCH!
"Ouch" on the first one too. Though I don't have anything at hand
that gives "official" value, it seems to me that a mono "Magical
Mystery Tour" would be even harder to find. "Sgt. Pepper" was
released at a time when mono and stereo LP's were still given equal
prominence on store shelves, but it seems to me that one saw far
fewer mono copies of MMT. And I can only ever recall encountering
one in the years that followed.
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Message: 19
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:23:25 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Manhattans - Kiss & Say Goodbye
Peter Kearns asked:
> Is the x-rated version of Kiss And Say Goodbye the full version
> as opposed to the single just being an edit of it? Or is it a
> totally different recording?
Tony:
> I believe it to be the full version but with an extended beginning.
> The lable copy offers the time for the A side as 4:26, and for the
> B side as 5:11. I have no way of checking the timing for the
> regular issue, so hope that the above will help.
My MP3 runs 4:30, but the guy who made it usually puts three or five
seconds silence at the end to facilitate CD burning. 4:26 sounds
about right.
Joe Nelson
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 12:31:25 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: worst 45 pressing
steveo wrote:
> A 45 that gets my vote for the worst pressing is the Elektra 45
> compatible mono/stereo 1967 release of the Doors "Light My Fire".
> It sounded good for the first 25 plays or so, but wore out
> qickly, and the grooves were so close together it started to eat
> up the needle pretty quickly also becoming white as snow. Most of
> these were cheap styrene plastic.
>From 1967? Every copy I've ever heard was not only mono, but a
different mix from the album (although it may have simply been an
edit of the mono LP version).
Joe Nelson
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Message: 21
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:51:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Beatles Strange but True
James Botticelli wrote:
> this was a new sensibility, already in the air, and
> the prize went to the Beatles. That they had melodic
> sensibility and could turn a lyric was their
> collective gift, but that came about largely after
> the beats made them kings of the hill, top of the
> pops.
I always thought it was one of those strange-but-true things
that Lennon & McCartney's songwriting talent kicked into high
gear at the precise point when they got a record contract.
Almost like the schoolkid who realises that the essay has to
be in on Monday - it's 11 o'clock Sunday evening - better get
writing.
They did a few horrible songs before Love Me Do/PS I Love You
but only a few. Then suddenly, they couldn't stop writing hit
after hit. Strange.
pb
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Message: 22
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:41:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Bob Hanes
Subject: Re: Brian Wilson's last greatest song.....
....hasn't been released yet!
I was gonna "hold my mud", but....
Richard spoke of This Isn't Love. Others mentioned Water
Builds Up. I agree that both and more are worthy. They
came from writing sessions in the early eighties. Not
Brian's psychologically peak moments. This Isn't Love
is from the infamous "cocaine sessions". It has been
revealed that a song called City Blues is to be on the
next solo album. It is wonderful! A great song!
"Slowhand" plays guitar on the track!
I am told by a central figure that the song sung with/by
Elton John, called, I Can't Believe We're Still Dancing
(written after Brian noticed his young daughters Daria na
Delanie dancing to their music as he watched, LIVE on
television the Columbine tragedy unfolding) is beyond
great and features full on BW production. Total control!
No "helpers". Wilson's song so impressed John, he knocked
himself out singing. Wilson was in turn inspired to "go
back in and add production tweaks and add bk vox of his
own voice. (the album features only Brian's voice, save EJ,
and Macca as guests on one song each! or so I'm told.)
February is gonna be big, in Wilsonia!
The Right Reverend Bob, dumb angel chapel,
Church of the Harmonic Overdub
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Message: 23
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:42:11 -0000
From: George
Subject: The Rag Dolls
Hi, can anyone tell me where I can get The Rag Dolls on CD?
Got a couple of songs sent to me but I'd love to hear
everything they've done
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 17:42:56 -0000
From: Kevin
Subject: Mike Randle in "Please Phil Spector"
I have really been enjoying the savory tasteful nuggets of
wisdom and entertainment (plus the tangy fruits of great
research) baked into David Young's "Please Phil Spector"
and served with such relish.
( Here's a quiche link to aid in your digestion:
http://www.spectropop.com/PPS/index.htm )
While I couldn't possibly add anything necessarily nourishing
to the main course of discussion, I would like to offer a side
dish I just whipped up that you can snack on related to one of
the artists mentioned in this section:
http://www.spectropop.com/PPS/PPSpart5.htm
In his discussion of record art lookalikes, David says:
"The cover photo on MIKE RANDLE's CD 'The Music Loves You
(Even If I Don't)' (Eggbert 80029) is suspiciously similar
to that on Leonard Cohen's 'Death Of A Ladies' Man'.
(See also Part 3: It Says Here…)"
A rich and meaty point to chew on, even more substantial when
you know (as I'm sure many of you do) about Mike Randle's
relationship to topics covered by the Spectropop mailing list.
Mike is well-known in certain circles in L.A. as a very
accomplished musician and guitarist with an encyclopedic
knowledge of pop (honed in his former day job in a collector's
record shop.) He formed the band Baby Lemonade (named after the
leadoff track on Syd Barrett's solo debut LP), which has had a
great impact on the L.A. pop revival (along with other bands
like the Wondermints and the Negro Problem), and is currently
the lead guitarist with the new Arthur Lee and Love concoction,
which has allowed 60s icon Arthur Lee to cut loose with the most
proficient and lovely live music-making of his career.
Altogether a full-fledged pop hero -- and a dashingly good-looking
fellow indeed.
kjm in la
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Message: 25
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:49:23 -0800 (PST)
From: steveo
Subject: Styrene vs.plastic 45's
Mike Mckay,
You are correct on the Epic singles from the early 60s thru
the mid-60s. They were all styrene and terrible (they wore out
quickly). Different regions of the country pressed the same
records, and in some cases such as "This Diamond Ring" by Gary
Lewis and the Playboys, you would receive the cheap styrene
(brittle plastic) or a nice vinyl copy that would play forever,
depending on where you lived.
Los Angeles Plants pressed cheap styrene copies of "This Diamond
Ring" and other Lewis 45s. I remember getting a great copy of
"Ring" from a Liberty Pressing from Canada, second-hand..Great!!!
Capitol records always used great vinyl, tho..and those Beatle..
Beach boys records will play forever!..Anyone else have any
thoughts on this?
Steveo
p.s. Remember the Canadian Capitol single of All
My Lovin'/This Boy on Canadian Capitol? great find
-------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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