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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: 4 Seasons in Mono
From: Paul Bryant
2. One Inept Ingredient: Jack Webb & Jack(ie) Wilson
From: John Sellards
3. Re: Austin Roberts Interview - Arkade/Austin R. music
From: Art Longmire
4. Re: Most Inept Hit
From: Art Longmire
5. Vinyl / Stylii / Radio Stations / Cue Burn
From: Skip Woolwine
6. Re: The Chiffons - "My Secret Love"
From: Art Longmire
7. Re: Alder Ray
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
8. Re: Wilson-Paley
From: Susan
9. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Art Longmire
10. Re: ask the stars
From: Phil Milstein
11. Re: Jaynetts & other sing-a-long flipsides
From: Artie Butler
12. Re: Alder Ray
From: Phil Hall
13. Inept must be a compliment
From: Ian Slater
14. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Rodney Rawlings
15. "California Dreamin'" -- out-of-tune flute?
From: Rodney Rawlings
16. Re: Most Inept Hit -- Angel Baby
From: Art Longmire
17. Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
From: James Botticelli
18. Re: (Richard) Hell
From: Hugo M
19. You're Gonna Lose That Girl/Help album
From: Peter Kearns
20. Re: New member
From: Steve Harvey
21. Re: Mods and The Action
From: JB
22. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Peter Kearns
23. Re: (im)perfect pitch
From: Peter Kearns
24. 2 more examples: McCartney.
From: Peter Kearns
25. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Poul Nielsen
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 13:05:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: 4 Seasons in Mono
Billy G. Spradlin wrote:
> Ace Records reissued "Edizione D'oro" on CD back
> in the mid 90's and instead of going all-stereo,
> it used the mono mixes of many singles, and the
> alternate stereo remixes done for that album.
As a Seasons fan can I ask if the mono mixes are
better than the stereo or significantly different?
pb
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:08:47 -0000
From: John Sellards
Subject: One Inept Ingredient: Jack Webb & Jack(ie) Wilson
Again, here's one outside the realm, but I'll offer it anyway
since it was after the start of the rock and roll era: The
beautiful backing orchestration of Billy May supporting Webb's
emotionless lyric readings on his "You're My Girl" LP.
And what about the out of tune guitar on Jackie Wilson's
"Higher And Higher"?
John Sellards
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:27:18 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: Austin Roberts Interview - Arkade/Austin R. music
Clark:
> With my posting of Austin's "One Word" and the stereo "Morning
> of Our Lives" "in cue", I spent some time digging out my Austin
> 45s. With Austin's permission only (sorry I didn't consult you
> on "One Word", but it SHOULD be heard!), I could likely post any
> of these songs. Not sure if I found all I have, but a couple of
> early efforts on Philips would be "Mary & Me", b/w "I'll Smile"
Clark, thanks for your post - I have "Mary and Me" by Austin Roberts
on a Philips 45 and haven't been able to find it-it'll probably turn
up when I'm not looking for it!
Was this recorded in 1968? The lyrics on this song always seemed to
me to refer to marijuana. Yes, another one of the infamous "Mary"
songs. But that may be just me reading something into it that isn't
there.
I also have the Arkade song "Sing Out the Love" on Dunhill Records-
this is the only song by Arkade I've heard so far.
Art Longmire
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:47:31 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit
Billy G. Spradlin wrote:
> "Angel Baby" has one of the sickest sounding, most amateur
> sax solos ever committed to vinyl. How this record connected
> with a national audience I will never know.
> "Wild Weekend" sounds like the Rebels practiced a few times
> before they recorded it. I think its one of the best instros
> of the early 60's just for the cool slapback ("Thunk-Thunk-Thunk"),
> splashy cymbals and badass guitar solo. Great early garage rock!
> I'll take it over "Theme from a Summer Place" any day (though it
> doesn't beat "Telstar")!
> My pick: Royal Teens "Short Shorts" and Chuck Berry's "My Ding-A-
> Ling".
I have to weigh in as a huge fan of "Angel Baby" as well as its
famously inept B-side "Give Me Love". I love the sax solo on "Angel
Baby"! Back in the late 70's I used to listen to a "Low Rider" radio
station out of Los Angeles and they were always giving this song a
lot of airplay - it's remained a favorite of the Mexican-American
subculture to this day. I also love the ham-handed piano playing on
this track. In short, I like everything about it and it's one of my
favorite songs. But I can't deny that it probably makes trained
musicians cringe!
Art Longmire
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:50:56 -0600
From: Skip Woolwine
Subject: Vinyl / Stylii / Radio Stations / Cue Burn
None of the stations I worked for really used a phono cartridge
or stylus specifically "designed for broadcasters' use". In the
1970's, a lower-end consumer stylus-cartridge was the radio
engineers' fave at Nashville's WMAK, WLAC, WSM, and others: the
Shure M44C, with the conical stylus caused less cue-burn, and the
engineers liked it because it was thought to be more durable,
especially for mono Top-40 AM Radio... And they cost a little
less to replace, too. DJs were famous for destroying stylii.
But the M44E, with elliptical stylus, was implemented in a number
of FM stereo studios, hoping for better separation and crisper highs.
PDs and engineers lamented. Cueing a record with an elliptical stylus
is like driving the wrong way over those parking lot spikes at the
exit: the shape of the stylus could sometimes, depending on the
quality of the vinyl, shave out the groove. And the elliptical
edges of the stylus tended to get damaged from rough DJ handling
and regular wear and tear. What would be an example of a phono
cartridge/stylus specifically designed for radio stations?
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:06:21 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: The Chiffons - "My Secret Love"
Mike McKay wrote:
> This gives me the opportunity to pose a question I think I know the
> answer to, but I'll throw it to the experts here to confirm that which
> I dread: has The Chiffons sublime "What Am I Gonna Do with You (Hey
> Baby)" ever been reissued anywhere on the planet on CD? There are many
> Chiffons comps with just about everything (other than the "Secret Love"
> tracks) on them, but I've yet to see this anywhere.
Mike, did Lesley Gore record a version of "What Am I Gonna Do With
You"? I haven't heard the song by the Chiffons, so I can't compare it
to Lesley's tune (which I heard several times on a restaurant
jukebox). Lesley's version was outstanding -- your description of the
Chiffons' track has me interested in hearing it as well.
Art Longmire
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 16:27:15 EST
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
Subject: Re: Alder Ray
Hey there David,
I haven't heard the Fourmost song "A Little Lovin'... " Alder
Ray's (produced by Teddy Bear Marshall Leib) is pure romping and
storming good-time gospel, the kind of music they used to throw
down at revivals. MAN it's fantastic. And you can clearly hear
the Blossoms on background vocals (unless I'm mistaken, I swear I
hear Darlene coming through loud and clear).
Jimmy
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:43:47 EST
From: Susan
Subject: Re: Wilson-Paley
Phil M. wonders:
> On what album(s) can Brian's Paley sessions be found?
They're booted on collections called the Wilson-Paley Sessions, Soul
Searchin', and I believe there is another one.
Susan in frigid New England -- go Pats!
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:29:25 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Phil Milstein wrote:
> One of the Papas comes in early after the break in "I Saw Her Again",
> abruptly cutting off his "I saw her ..." before order is restored.
> Given how professional, talented and careful the M's & P's ordinarily
> were, however, I wonder if this little glitch wasn't somehow intentional.
Phil, the story on "I Saw Her Again" is that Denny Doherty came in a
bit too early on the verse and the producer liked the effect and so
left it in the final mix. I love this little "glitch" and listen for
it every time I hear the song. It's probably one of the most famous
mistakes in a popular record, along with the one in the middle
of "Louie Louie" by the Kingsmen.
Art Longmire
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:31:27 +0000
From: Phil Milstein
Subject: Re: ask the stars
Scott Swanson wrote:
> "I wonder what Brian Wilson thinks of...."
... Be My Baby?
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:45:29 EST
From: Artie Butler
Subject: Re: Jaynetts & other sing-a-long flipsides
Hi Michael,
I would be very interested in knowing what other 7" Tuff record you speak
of.
Thanks,
Artie Butler
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:34:00 -0000
From: Phil Hall
Subject: Re: Alder Ray
Mick,
Just so you'll know, I clicked the link on your post for a photo of
Alder Ray, and after following the instructions on the page
explicitly, I got the message "Sorry, no matches found for 'Alder
Ray'". Are there any photos anywhere else?
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:44:52 -0000
From: Ian Slater
Subject: Inept must be a compliment
What's this - all my favourite records being discussed for being inept?
Angel Baby, 1000 Stars, Louie Louie and now Wild Weekend - surely the best Rock n' Roll instrumental ever. Shirelles off key - heresy! Perhaps "inept" means "brilliant" and all my dictionaries are wrong?
Really, does it matter if some obscure (to some of us, anyway) musical rules are broken, or mistakes are made, if the result sounds brilliant, as all theserecords do?
The fogginess of "Sally Go the Roses" (deliberate we all now know -- thanks Dan & Artie) was essential to the appeal of that record. So why not "wrong" notes, "flat" singing, "out-of synch" drums, etc., if the result sounds great? Lets call it "improvisation".
Ian Slater
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:09:29 -0000
From: Rodney Rawlings
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Phil M:
> One of the Papas comes in early after the break in "I Saw Her
> Again," abruptly cutting off his "I saw her ..." before order is
> restored. Given how professional, talented and careful the M's & the
> P's ordinarily were, however, I wonder if this little glitch wasn't
> somehow intentional.
I first heard this as intentional, as it sounds interesting, but now
and then it has occurred to me that it might have been an error
slightly patched up.
See also my post on the flute break in "California Dreamin'."
Rodney
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:32:26 -0000
From: Rodney Rawlings
Subject: "California Dreamin'" -- out-of-tune flute?
I've heard it implied that the instrumental break in the Mamas and
the Papas' "California Dreamin'" is out of tune. Specifically, a
critic reviewing Denny Doherty's stage show DREAM A LITTLE DREAM
commented that it was nice to hear the flute play its melody in tune
for once.
This is something I've never noticed. Is it actually true? (In my
mind's ear, I can hear that it MIGHT be true, but the record is so
familiar that I can't be certain.) And, if there is anyone on this
forum with perfect pitch, I would like to ask if it bothers him or
her.
I guess if there is a place for "blue notes" in music -- which are
neither exactly major nor minor -- there can be out-of-tune flute solos.
Rodney
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Message: 16
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:36:24 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit -- Angel Baby
John Sellards wrote:
> The Innocents did an incredible job on "Gee Whiz", one of my
> favorite records, and a pretty much flawless performance. Wonder
> why they don't sound that great on other things? I have the LP
> (I haven't listened to it in a few years) and recall some intonation
> issues there as well.
I haven't heard much from the Innocents, but I have one track by them
on the Kim Fowley CD "Impossible But True". It's called "Honest I Do"
and I just love it -- the harmonies are unearthly, although the song
could be longer -- it clocks in at less than two minutes. I was
surprised to read in the liner notes that the song was a top forty
hit. If more of the Innocents' material sounds like this, I'd
definitely be interested in hearing more.
Art Longmire
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 17:55:32 -0500
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
James Botticelli:
> Nope...a good Stanton Cartridge is a wonderful thing. And it has
> been synthesized. The above programs have the sound or you can
> sample the sound into them (at least with Pro Tools)
Rodney:
> What you've described is interesting, but doesn't cover the
> main thing I was curious about, which is the sound of a stylus
> being dragged across the grooves repeatedly in a rhythmic fashion.
> Can you shed any light on this?
I can try ... what exactly are you askin'? Its called scratching and
it serves as a percussive effect. If it works for you it's good.
If not, oh well.
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:13:45 -0000
From: Hugo M
Subject: Re: (Richard) Hell
Yow, I never noticed that, Phil, about one clause contradicting
the other. You're absolutely right. Another cute one, punks
playing with parentheses, is "(Get A) Grip (On Yourself)" by
The Stranglers.
(The lines from 'Who Says' that I liked must be somewhere else
in the song, those weren't it... but it WAS something that you
needed to hear before you'd noticed how neatly it was organized...)
Down-shoobie-doo-dow-down...
Hugo M.
http://free.hostdepartment.com/P/PME
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Message: 19
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:17:59 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: You're Gonna Lose That Girl/Help album
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Okay - interesting -- you give two examples of off-key backing
> singing, My Sweet Lord and You're Gonna Lose that Girl. I'll put up
> my hand and say I honestly never heard these as off-key at all! So
> here's the perfect forum to ask the question - what does everyone
> else think?
Honestly, I still can't listen to 'You're Gonna Lose That Girl'
without a shudder. The very first one right at the start is the main
offender. Actually 'Help' in general has always seemed to me to be
somewhat of a backward step after the slickness compared of 'Beatles
For Sale'. Probably the only example of this in the Beatles ouvre.
Anyone agree??
Peter.
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 15:23:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Harvey
Subject: Re: New member
Welcome Lloyd,
I remember growing up in Delaware during the 60s and watching
your show (in black and white) in the afternoons. Even come
across some footage now and then hiding in my videos collection
that contains some bits from your show.
We await your tales from behind the scenes.
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 18:33:45 EST
From: JB
Subject: Re: Mods and The Action
Just a quick note to the 'mod squad' members of this group.
I enjoyed a fascinating listen this past summer to 8 tracks
recorded by The Action live in the BBC studios back in the day.
I was in the UK for 5 weeks (I normally reside in Seattle) and
spent a day visiting a London-based friend who grew up in Plymouth
on the south coast. He was a true '60s mod and used to go to a
mod club in Plymouth called The Bird House, where among others
The Action played fairly regularly. Now my friend is an educator
by day and an Action fan the rest of his time. With the full
cooperation of the band members, he is writing the definitive
story of The Action and interweaving his own experience as a mod
into the story. As he says, you cannot understand the band's story
without placing it in the context of the mod story, so he decided to
tell both in one go. As a "bonus" to the forthcoming book (still
being written) there will be a disc containing the earliest demo cut
by The Action, never before released. I got to hear this and was
stunned -- yet another great rendition of a relatively obscure Motown
number, done in the Action's own inimitable style. I am not at liberty
to give the title of the song, but fans will not be disappointed.
Now, back to the BBC tracks. My friend played me 4 songs from a first
live set, comprised of their earlier Motown-styled material, including
one song they never recorded in the studio -- all superb. From a second
live-at-BBC set were 4 songs from their transitional period as they began moving to original songs that were more "psych" influenced (reflecting
their own journeys). This material fits nicely with their "Rolled Gold"
demo recordings that were recently released on CD. The second BBC set includes Shadows & Reflections, an early rendition of "India" (very
loosely modeled after the John Coltrane riff) and a neat version of
"I See You" from the Byrds, another number the Action never cut in the
studio. Since my visit, another two BBC cuts from the earlier live set
have been discovered, so now there are 10 BBC tracks -- apparently soon
set for release by a label my friend was not able to tell me more about
at this stage. All a treasure trove for any fan of The Action. If we are
lucky this stuff will all see release in 2004.
JB
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Message: 22
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:34:01 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Mike McKay wrote:
> I can't say I've ever noticed this, but if they're indeed
> out of tune Phil may have let them pass because George sang
> every single one of them himself -- which obviously took some
> considerable effort given how many parts there are.
> It's one thing to boss around anonymous background singers
> and another to boss around one of The Beatles!
Maybe. But I doubt either George or Phil would've had that ego
stuff rolling around would they? (Well, maybe Phil.:-)) Besides,
what's the point of spending good money on the best producer if
you're not gonna let him do his job? It's moot, of course. I'd
rather hear an honest recording like that than the freeze-dried
soulless perfection of today. :-)
> It must be beyond me too, because I've never noticed it.
> This has always been a favorite Beatles track of mine.
> Where do you hear something off-key? In the response vocals
> or on the bridge where there's full three-part harmony? If
> you can be specific, I'll listen for it.
No, the bridge is good. It's mainly the very first bvs response
right at the start. It gets better from there but it's still
shaky often.
Peter.
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:41:58 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: Re: (im)perfect pitch
steveo wrote:
> I'm aware of these imperfections...noticed them, like
> you...but what I think the producers went after was
> the "Feel" of the take....For most of us that's fine...
> do you have perfect pitch? It can be annoying to those
> who do..to hear this stuff. These imperfections...
I don't know about perfect but pitch is surely relative. If
they're gonna set the standard with a fine backing track,
surely it's worth the trouble to get the bvs right. I agree
with you though, Paul. It's a fine line between capturing the
feel of a take that may not necessarily happen again if redone,
and squeezing the soul out of it by aiming for perfection. You
can bet, on any record there are reasons for why things are as
they are. That's why it's so fascinating to talk about.
Peter.
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Message: 24
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:49:44 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: 2 more examples: McCartney.
How about the out of tune bass on the song 'Band On The Run'?
Shame. What a brilliant arrangement. But it still works. And
also after hearing something for so many years, if suddenly
the bass was perfectly in tune it would sound out, I would
imagine.
Another example from that album is 'Bluebird'. The four-note
acoustic guitar rundown that leads to the out-chorus is grossly
out pitch-wise. But I think in this particular case it's more
for purposeful effect. I even find myself waiting for it, like
a five year-old waits for a fire engine. haha.
Peter.
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 00:55:45 +0100
From: Poul Nielsen
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Okay - interesting -- you give two examples of off-key backing
> singing, My Sweet Lord and You're Gonna Lose that Girl. I'll put up
> my hand and say I honestly never heard these as off-key at all!
Phil M.
> One of the Papas comes in early after the break in "I Saw Her Again",
> abruptly cutting off his "I saw her ..." before order is restored.
> Given how professional, talented and careful the M's & P's ordinarily
> were, however, I wonder if this little glitch wasn't somehow
> intentional.
Well, as you say - you’re going from memory. Actually Mamas & Papas
are among my very favorites, and the song you think of is 'Midnight
Voyage'. Intended or not? Well, I have the sheet music for the song
and there you have the interruption included, so...
Poul N.
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