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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
From: Mick Patrick
2. Re: Most Inept Hit -- Angel Baby
From: Paul Bryant
3. RE: California Dreamin out of tune/ Love is all around (troggs)
From: Richard Hattersley
4. Re: Most Inept Hit
From: Joe Nelson
5. Re: Fraternal Order of The All; auteurs, artists and producers; ...
From: Scott
6. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Paul Bryant
7. Re: Inept must be a compliment
From: Paul Bryant
8. Re: Grapefruit
From: Mark Frumento
9. Re: Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
From: Phil Chapman
10. Re: Lloyd Thaxton
From: Mike
11. Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
From: Paul Bryant
12. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Michael Carpenter
13. inept recordings
From: John Henderson
14. Re: Help album
From: Paul Bryant
15. Re: Clingers
From: JJ
16. Welcome Lloyd Thaxton
From: James Cassidy
17. Re: Mods & the Action & cover versions
From: Howard
18. Re: Progressive Northern soul
From: James Botticelli
19. Re: Jill Gibson
From: Guy Lawrence
20. Re: Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
From: Mike Rashkow
21. Gene Pistilli
From: Davie
22. Re: Ineptness
From: Joe Nelson
23. 4 Seasons drummer
From: Paul Bryant
24. Past, Present And Future
From: Artie Butler
25. Re:ONE inept ingredient!
From: Guy Lawrence
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:51:49 -0000
From: Mick Patrick
Subject: Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
Welcome to Spectropop the one and only Artie Butler, Brill
Building hero de-luxe!
Among a thousand other credits, Artie is listed as co-writer
(along with Jerry Leiber and Shadow Morton, but *not* Beethoven!)
and arranger of my all-time favourite record, the Shangri-Las'
"Past, Present And Future".
Were you at the actual session, Artie? Any memories or stories
to tell? Trust me, we can take as much detail (or dirt) as you
can muster.
Great website you've got too.
Hey la,
Mick Patrick
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:26:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit -- Angel Baby
For Rosie's account of the famously inept hit go here:
http://rosieandtheoriginals.com/main/rosiehamlin.htm
The sax player couldn't make it to the session, I
think his mother made him mow the lawn, so the bassist
had to do the sax solo. After they did the 30 takes it
took to get the slick perfection we hear today, the
producer said "OK, what about the flip side?" and of
course they hadn't thought of that one! So a pal of
theirs who was along for the ride & who was a wannabe
singer stepped up and improvised a song right there
for them. This explains everything.
pb
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:13:06 +0000
From: Richard Hattersley
Subject: RE: California Dreamin out of tune/ Love is all around (troggs)
> This is something I've never noticed. Is it actually true?
> (In my mind's ear, I can hear that it MIGHT be true, but
> the record is so familiar that I can't be certain.) And,
> if there is anyone on this forum with perfect pitch, I
> would like to ask if it bothers him or her.
Yeh I have always thought that flute was off in places.
Mostly in the second half of the solo when it plays higher.
Not that it hurts the record at all, I still think it's
fantastic. I think most people take the overall feeling
of a record rather than musical perfection.
Another example is "Love is all around" by the Troggs.
How can their out of tune guitar driven version be
better than Wet Wet Wet's schmaltzy note perfect cover?
I dunno, but it is!
Richard
http://www.wiz.to/richardsnow
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:23:57 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit
previously:
>Also not pointed out so far is that Jack Ely comes in a measure too
>early as he begins to sing the final verse after the solo. He
>realizes his mistake and clams up, and the drummer compensates
>nicely with a flashy set of rolls and cymbal crashes. To me, if he
>had waited the proper amount of time, it wouldn't have been nearly
>as cool. As it is, his jumping in early gives the song additional
>momentum it would have otherwise lost if he'd waited for two
>iterations of the chords before singing.
As a result of which, he copied the mistake intentionally years later
when re-recording the track for Gusto Records.
Joe
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:05:58 EST
From: Scott
Subject: Re: Fraternal Order of The All; auteurs, artists and producers; ...
Country Paul writes:
> Andrew Gold a/k/a The Fraternal Order Of The All has the gorgeous
> "Love Tonight," one of the best songs "left off" Pet Sounds (and
> the acapella "Tuba Rye and Will's Son"),
There are tons of 60s styled tributes out there, but this
one's worth hearing just cause Gold seems to put so much
enthusiasm into the tracks ...
Scott
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:56:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Billy G. Spradlin wrote:
> Or how about the cough in the middle of The Beach
> Boys "Wendy"? I blame the engineer for not muting it.
In Beach Boy obsessive fan circles there are lists of
records with noises left in - this happens even on Pet
Sounds (on the song Here Today). So Wendy is not an
isolated incident.
Another notable vocal is on the Beatles "If I Fell"
on which Paul McCartney has a high harmony to maintain
for the whole song - eventually his voice cracks, but
as they were really pushed for time they had to leave
it in.
pb
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:30:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: Inept must be a compliment
Ian Slater wrote:
> What's this - all my favourite records being
> discussed for being inept?
Man, I'm not trying to badmouth these records, I love
'em all, from Rosie to Sam the Sham! But they're inept!
pb
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:07:40 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: Grapefruit
Mark Wirtz wrote:
> Well, Scott - major Kudos to you!! Yes, that DOES sound like
> the track I was referring to. It is amazing to me that nobody
> else has figured that out, and believe me, the "scouts" have
> been searching.
And sadly I think we'll still be searching.
Scott is right. The US album lists a track called "Give it
One More Try". The problem is that the track refered to is
an instrumental. Though I don't know for a fact (until I
hear the US version) I believe it is the same track as
"Theme for Twiggy" from the UK album. It kind of makes
sense that they would rename the song for the US market.
I'll forward the song to you. It would be interesting to
find out if it's a backing track that you produced (since
Melcher takes all the production credits). However, it
doesn't sound like your work at all.
Perhaps someone with the US album can post the song to
musica for comparison?
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:19:10 -0000
From: Phil Chapman
Subject: Re: Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
Mick Patrick:
> Among a thousand other credits, Artie is listed as arranger
> and co-writer (along with Jerry Leiber and Shadow Morton,
> but *not* Beethoven!) of my all-time favourite record, the
> Shangri-Las' "Past, Present And Future".
Hi and welcome Artie. Mick's sentiments seconded.
I've always wanted to ask about the arpeggiated guitar
on PP&F. Is it an FX pedal, or played through a Leslie
cabinet? I love that part, and have used it a number
of times on things I've recorded over the years. By the
way, Artie, are you aware of just how huge a cult record
that was and still is?
That's a great Jaynetts story. When I first heard "Sally...",
I almost thought it had been recorded through a microphone
placed in front of the playback monitor, but I soon became
hooked on the eerie sound that seemed to go well with the lyrics.
By the way, did you have anything to do with "Cry Behind The
Daisies"? If not, they certainly took your lead!
I would also like to enquire after one of your classics (IMHO),
The Shangri-las "Out In The Streets". It's my personal fave,
and Lou Reed once told me it was his too! I still remember
playing the 45 (UK pressing) for the first time and watching
in disbelief as the cones almost jumped out the loudspeakers.
Where did that subsonic bass end come from? I assume it was a
stand-up bass and a low-tuned kick? The double-tempo guitar
rhythm almost sounds like a banjo/uke in all that echo. I
particularly like the deceptive, yet effective melodic exchange
between the backing vocals and the strings, and to quote the
verse vocal line in the bass part is simple genius. Furthermore,
as minutia seems to be the order of the day, can you tell me
what the percussion player was doing until the four bars of
maracas on the last chorus?
Of course, this is a girlgroup record, not a rock classic, so
you're unlikely to be defied, but, to my mind, you've managed
once again, using a fairly conventional session line-up in an
ununsual manner, to capture exactly the mood of this underrated
Jeff & Ellie song, making it one of the most finely crafted pop
records ever. Thanks.
Phil
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:20:55 -0500
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Lloyd Thaxton
Dear Mr Thaxton:
Do the videotapes of your Ch 11 show still exist?
Or is all that remain kinescopes?
thank you,
Mike Arcidiacono
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Message: 11
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:19:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
Rodney:
> What you've described is interesting, but doesn't cover the
> main thing I was curious about, which is the sound of a stylus
> being dragged across the grooves repeatedly in a rhythmic fashion.
> Can you shed any light on this?
James Botticelli wrote:
> I can try ... what exactly are you askin'? Its called
> scratching and it serves as a percussive effect. If it
> works for you it's good. If not, oh well.
Rodney's question is the very one I always wanted to
ask. I just switched on the TV and there was a new big
hit band called Outkast doing their thing, and behind
the dancers there was a turntable guy, and the
characteristic scratching sound could be heard.
Okay - here's the question. Everything the turntable
guy was doing could (surely?) be done by keyboards or
backing tapes if they're looping/repeating sounds. It
almost seems that all the guy is really doing is making
the scratching noise itself. If so, how pathetic is that?
So, given all that - I'm thinking that the reason the
turntable guy is included as part of a live act is to
look cool.
pb
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Message: 12
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:43:23 +1100
From: Michael Carpenter
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Hi gang...
One of my favourite Beatle related 'things' is the bass
being out of tune on Ticket To Ride. The song's in A, and
pedals on the A a lot during the song, and McCartney is
often playing up the octave. But the bit that get's me is
when it goes into the 'my baby don't care' ending, he seems
to just be bending the A on the 7th fret of the D string a
little, and man, it irks me. Same sort of deal on One after 909,
but this time in B. Maybe Macca had some intonation problems on
his Hofners around the middle of the neck. Owning a few of those
over the years, I wouldn't be surprised. In fact Band On The Run's
bass, as mentioned is another post, and i think there's a couple
that don't come to mind immediately from Macca.
Another nice Beatle related 'thing' though not a mistake but
a quirk that I hang out for all the time is the wash cloth
coming of McCartney's snare on the drum solo-ey part of Dear
Prudence. If you listen to all the fills, the snare starts
nice and dead but you hear it becoming a little more 'live'
as it goes along until it's finally ringin' like a bell, and
stays that way til the end of the song. One of my favourite
Beatle moments.
Having said that, I've never heard You're Gonna Lose That Girl
as being out... so what do I know.
MC
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:27:12 -0000
From: John Henderson
Subject: inept recordings
One of the many reason I usually simply lurk at this site ...
the truly intelligent, fun and interesting comments made by
people who obviously love the music even if their comments do
not reflect that love. Angel Baby, Louie, Louie (don't you
just love to hate that particular song, especially while
attempting to sing along), Wild Weekend, many of the mentioned
should be brought to light.
Let me resurrect resurrect Last Kiss by J. Frank Wilson.
This is the ONE that causes me to cringe when I hear the
background vocalist trying to maintain, let alone hit
those high notes. You simply know what the producer had
in mind but there's no way that individual could deliver
on that session. So good to hear the Roberts, Gordons etc.
remembering those they worked with and to hear the name
Snuff in a sentence brings back wonderful memories. Thanks!
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:27:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Re: Help album
Peter Kearns wrote:
> Actually 'Help' in general has always seemed to me to
> be somewhat of a backward step after the slickness
> compared of 'Beatles For Sale'. Probably the only
> example of this in the Beatles ouvre. Anyone agree??
Absolutely not! Way I see it, A Hard Day's Night was
a truly great album (and all Lennon/McCartney songs).
Beatles For Sale was the backward step, a fairly
listless beast and some mediocre songs (What you're
Doing, I don't want to spoil the party). Then Help!
was somewhat better, and after that the Beatles
smoothly moved up about ten gears and did Rubber Soul.
All these comments are based on the British albums,
not the butchered American versions.
pb
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:14:01 -0000
From: JJ
Subject: Re: Clingers
Hey, check out item #88 in below record list,
i.e. RARE & cool looking DUTCH Clingers PS!....
I'm not the seller, just spotted this new list,
after reading about the Clingers:
http://www.windys.nu/rsingak.htm
JJ
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:22:18 -0500
From: James Cassidy
Subject: Welcome Lloyd Thaxton
I'd like to join the chorus welcoming Mr. Thaxton to the
Spectropopulation. Mr. Thaxton, one of the great things
I remember about your show (unlike some others) was that
you never patronized or underestimated the intelligence
of your "teen" audience and you always treated the music
and the musicians with respect. Belated thanks!
Jim Cassidy
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Message: 17
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:58:07 EST
From: Howard
Subject: Re: Mods & the Action & cover versions
JB wrote:
> As a "bonus" to the forthcoming book (still being written)
> there will be a disc containing the earliest demo cut by The
> Action, never before released. I got to hear this and was
> stunned -- yet another great rendition of a relatively obscure
> Motown number, done in the Action's own inimitable style. I am
> not at liberty to give the title of the song, but fans will not
> be disappointed.
I'd be interested to know which other Motown record they
recorded for sure! Another interest of mine is 'British
cover versions'. I have a decent collection of them, but
still on the search for many more! Has anyone heard or
have details of First Gears version of Dobie Gray's
'The In Crowd?
cheers..
Howard
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Message: 18
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:46:31 -0500
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Progressive Northern soul
Howard wrote:
> are you (1) asking what the difference is between the
> 'ordinary variety' of northern soul, against the
> progressive northern soul scene of today, or are you
> (2) just asking what the difference is between soul
> and northern soul??
>
> (1) The first question is easier to answer, as the
> northern soul scene has been active since the late sixties.
> 'Ordinary' northern soul IMO refers to the records that
> were played all those years ago, and continue to be played
> today -- these are commonly classed as 'oldies'. The
> progressive or 'UPfront' policy of certain venues are to
> 'discover' unknown or hardly known records of the sixties
> - known as new 6T's sounds - and play these rather than the
> (maybe still rare) but well known sounds of the past few decades.
Pardon a Yank's ignorance, but is that not what Northern Soul
is about to begin with? The discovery, airing, and label
destroying of rare soul records?
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:10:43 -0000
From: Guy Lawrence
Subject: Re: Jill Gibson
Bob wrote:
> Jill also co-wrote the Woolies only hit, whose name
> escapes me right this minute.
Not quite. The Woolies hit was an absolutely storming version
of Bo Diddley's "Who Do You Love" though Jill does share a
producer's credit with fellow J&D camp member Don Altfield.
Similar to the beautiful "Easy As 123" and obviously featuring
Jill's vocals again is "When It's Over" from the "Little Old
Lady From Pasadena" album. I'm also guessing that that's
Jill's sexy growl on "Surf Route 101" - "I dig your woody
lover - let's disappear!".
Guy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TweedleeDumsDrive-In/
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Message: 20
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:30:07 EST
From: Mike Rashkow
Subject: Re: Welcome the legendary Artie Butler!
I too wish to welcome the legendary Artie Butler to S'pop. Though
he left for the fertile fields of L.A. shortly after I got into
the NY scene, I have been in the studio when he was working and
the pleasure of his company on a couple of occasions.
I expect that the members will enjoy Artie's insights and humor as
much as the world has enjoyed some terrifically unique and creative
contributions to popular music that he made over the past (almost)
forty years.
While everyone knows about Sally Go Round The Roses, and his early
work with Neil Diamond, I'd like to call your attention to two of
my favs from that same period:
"S.O.S. Heart In Distress" by Christine Cooper on Parkway circa
1966. Listen to how he used orchestra bells (is that the same as
glockenspiel?) and (I think) Vinny Bell's guitar together--kind of
doubling bells in a manner of speaking--to suggest Morse code. It's
a great idea, beautifully executed, and one of my all time favorite
records. It is also the session where I met my former wife Mikie
Harris and Ellie Greenwich and Jeannie (Thomas) Fox when they came
in to do the background vocals.
Also Howard Tate's "Ain't Nobody Home" and "Look At Granny Run
Run", both of those are his dynamite, funky arrangements, but I'm
pretty sure that's also his piano and Hammond B3 on those records as
well. While both are very good Jerry Ragovoy songs and productions,
Artie's work raised the records to another level.
While he went on to bigger and possibly bluer horizons, these are
the ones that made me an Artie Butler fan in my youth--that and the
stories told about him at Bell Sound.
Brooklyn's loss is now S'pop's gain.
Di la,
Rashkovsky
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:34:38 -0000
From: Davie
Subject: Gene Pistilli
Here's a link to his current label which has an interesting
GP biography - I'd no idea he was a member of Chips & Co,
http://www.memphisinternational.com/index.php?target=pistilli&mode=ar
Davie
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:35:53 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Ineptness
previously:
> The Kingsmen on "Louie Louie" at Verse 3 jump the gun,
> and it works perfectly! He's supposed to be singing
> "Said" or "She said" and it fits in as "Say....."
> But it's clearly a boo-boo.
It's "See" - "See Jamaica, de moon above / Won't be long,
me see me love". He's using a mock island inflection, so
the "ee" sounds more like "aye".
Joe Nelson
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:45:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: 4 Seasons drummer
Dear Poppers
Speaking of the 4 Seasons, can anyone tell me who the
fantastic drummer was on such songs as "Dawn (Go Away)"
and "Walk Like a Man"? I'd like to celebrate this (to me)
unknown hero.
pb
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:05:24 EST
From: Artie Butler
Subject: Past, Present And Future
Hi Mick,
Thanks for your kind words. Yes, I was certainly at the recording
session for the Shangri-Las' "Past, Present and Future". I wrote
the arrangement. On one session we recorded the rhythm track. I
played piano. The rest of the band was as follows:
Guitars - Vinny Bell & Sal Ditroia
Bass - Bob Bushnell
Drums - Al Rogers
On the orchestra session there were 8 violins, 02 violas and 2
cellos and one arco bass. I do not remember if there was a harp or
not. I would have to listen to the record again. I also played
orchestra bells. The session was recorded at MiraSound studios. The
engineer was Brooks Arthur. I remember Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller
going crazy when they heard it for the first time all put together.
I must admit I really liked this record very much. It had a very
dramatic feel, and I liked being able to use some chords other than
the 1 - 04 - 05 progression. I really loved working with Shadow
Morton. He made records that were like mini movies. They had a
sense of drama. He was great to be in the studio with. I would love
to work with him again.
Again Mick, thanks for your very kind words.
Regards,
Artie Butler
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:07:57 -0000
From: Guy Lawrence
Subject: Re:ONE inept ingredient!
A friend once told me that the Gene Pitney's "24 Hours
from Tulsa" contains just such a moment. Apparently,
the ding!-ding!-ding! notes played on the guitar as
Gene sings his final "What can I do?" are actually
the guitarist using a common session musician's code
to signal that he has just made a mistake. The moment
comes at 2.36 on my CD copy. Surely someone out there
will know if this story is true.
Guy
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TweedleeDumsDrive-In/
-------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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