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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Long After Tonight Is All Over
From: Ken Silverwood
2. Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
From: Mike McKay
3. Re: Most Inept Hit
From: James Holvay
4. Re: Grapefruit; Jill Gibson; Celine Dion
From: Mark Frumento
5. Re: The Chiffons - "What Am I Gonna Do with You"
From: Mike McKay
6. Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
From: ACJ
7. Re: Inept must be a compliment
From: Mike McKay
8. Re: British cover versions
From: Fred Clemens
9. Re: Fingertips
From: Mike McKay
10. How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient
From: Skip Woolwine
11. the first mouseketeers?
From: Mary
12. Kane & Abel and The Taylor Brothers
From: Martin Roberts
13. Re: 24 Hours From Tulsa-Guitar part
From: Steveo
14. Re: 4 Seasons drummer
From: Monophonius
15. Re: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
From: steveo
16. Two Big Welcomes!
From: Mark
17. Re: Grapefruit?
From: Mark Frumento
18. Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
From: Mark: clevesoulie@netzero.com
19. Re: Jan & Dean, and our new Spectropoppers
From: John Fox
20. Drummer on 4 Seasons' "Dawn"
From: Michael Edwards
21. Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
From: James Botticelli
22. Re: British cover versions
From: Rat Pfink
23. Re: Jill Gibson
From: David Salter
24. Re: Fingertips
From: Joe Nelson
25. Re: Alder Ray / Gerri Granger
From: Mick Patrick
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Message: 1
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:46:06 -0000
From: Ken Silverwood
Subject: Long After Tonight Is All Over
I am a great lover of the above song since buying Jimmy
Radcliffe's recording of it back in 64/65. Since then I
have found other versions by Dusty Springfield, Irma Thomas,
Paris Sisters & recently Julie Rogers. I have a version on
tape which I would like to play to musica when the space comes
available, as I don't have a clue who the female singer is.
Does anyone know of any other versions? Also wasn't Jimmy
Radcliffe road manager for Gene Pitney at some point & did
Gene ever record the song perhaps on an album.
Ken On The West Coast.
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:41:01 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient!
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Another notable vocal is on the Beatles "If I Fell"
> on which Paul McCartney has a high harmony to maintain
> for the whole song - eventually his voice cracks, but
> as they were really pushed for time they had to leave
> it in.
On the stereo version, yes. For the single and the mono LP,
they duped the first time Paul sang this (without the crack)
and pasted it in for the second one.
One of many examples of this...perhaps the most notable
being the way John Lennon's singing of the entirely wrong
words in the last verse of "Please Please Me" was left in
on the stereo version but fixed in just the same manner
for the single and mono versions.
Mike
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:00:49 -0800
From: James Holvay
Subject: Re: Most Inept Hit
David Coyle asks:
> Was "Love You So" by Ron Holden actually a hit?
> "Love You So" entered the Billboard pop chart on April
> 10, 1960, and eventually peaked at #7 nationally on both
> Billboard and Cashbox's Top Ten charts. It started off
> as a regional #1 hit first -- the flipside, "My Babe,"
> was #2 -- in the Seattle area (according to Pat O'Day,
> the program director at KJR). Bob Keane picked it
> up for wider distribution via his Del-Fi label.
My niece on my now "ex-wife's side, married one of Ron Holden's
sons. I met Ron Sr. at their wedding quite a few years ago. He
was a great guy. We talked for hours about those early days of
rock'n'roll and Bob Keane. He past away a few years ago. After
the service, they had a "get together" in the Church hall and
it was like a rockn'roll revue straight out of the 50's. A lot
of the older do wop groups showed up and sang. I believe Donnie
Brooks organized it and MC'd the show. He did a terrific job.
Ron Jr., is a record producer and has a track on the recent DMX album.
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Message: 4
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:59:13 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: Grapefruit; Jill Gibson; Celine Dion
Bob Rashkow wrote:
> Grapefruit's 1st album is nothing short of incredible sounds.
> My favorites are "Ain't It Good" and "Theme for Twiggy" which
> was renamed at the last minute but not quickly enough for the
> revised title to make it onto the record itself.
So "Give it One More Try" is in fact the same song as "...Twiggy?"
> Now that we know that Jill Gibson indeed had her own terrific
> version of "It's As Easy As 1,2,3", which I am fortunate enough
> to have and play every chance I get, I did NOT know she was one
> of the Mamas and Papas, even if for a brief time. Also didn't
> know she was Jan Berry's main squeeze. Wonderful talent.
Oh boy, I agree! I think Gary Zekley mentions her knack for phrasing
and melody in an interview somewhere. Does anyone know what she's
doing these days? (sure this question has been asked before)
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Message: 5
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:59:25 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: The Chiffons - "What Am I Gonna Do with You"
I wrote:
> This gives me the opportunity to pose a question I think I know the
> answer to, but I'll throw it to the experts here to confirm that which
> I dread: has The Chiffons sublime "What Am I Gonna Do with You (Hey
> Baby)" ever been reissued anywhere on the planet on CD? There are many
> Chiffons comps with just about everything (other than the "Secret Love"
> tracks) on them, but I've yet to see this anywhere.
Art Longmire replied:
> Mike, did Lesley Gore record a version of "What Am I Gonna Do With
> You"? I haven't heard the song by the Chiffons, so I can't compare it
> to Lesley's tune (which I heard several times on a restaurant
> jukebox). Lesley's version was outstanding -- your description of the
> Chiffons' track has me interested in hearing it as well.
Yes, Art, it's the same song in both cases. Lesley does a nice job,
but there's no comparison between her version and The Chiffons'.
Judy Craig's vocal, filled with resignation and regret, and the
indescribably beautiful back-up vocals make this a truly transcendent
record.
Mike
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Message: 6
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:01:04 -0500 (EST)
From: ACJ
Subject: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
Okay, here's my contribution to the "ineptness" discussion.
I've never understood why the Drifters' "There Goes My Baby"
has those two tympani rumbling away in the background, neither
of which is in tune with the rest of he song. Perhaps there's
a story behind it?
ACJ (also glad to welcome Messrs. Thaxton and Butler to S'pop)
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Message: 7
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:06:52 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Inept must be a compliment
Ian Slater wrote:
> What's this - all my favourite records being discussed for being inept?
> Angel Baby, 1000 Stars, Louie Louie and now Wild Weekend - surely the best
> Rock n' Roll instrumental ever. Shirelles off key - heresy!
Well, surely not heresy when referring to "fall apart" at
the end of the bridge of "Tonight's the Night"! Nevertheless,
I like the song a lot. Overall though, I've always put The
Shirelles down a notch in the girl group hierarchy, as their
backing vocals just aren't as sharp as The Chiffons' or even
The Shangri-las' (no contest, my two favorite girl groups).
Still, The Shirelles did some good stuff too.
> Perhaps "inept" means "brilliant" and all my dictionaries
> are wrong? Really, does it matter if some obscure (to some
> of us, anyway) musical rules are broken, or mistakes are made,
> if the result sounds brilliant, as all these records do?
That's the big "if", of course. Certainly "feel" and "soul" can
make up for a lot of less-that-perfect vocalizing or playing.
But sometimes inept really is inept and gets in the way. I'd
have to think of some examples...really, I'm much more on your
side about this.
> The fogginess of "Sally Go the Roses" (deliberate we all now know -- thanks
> Dan & Artie) was essential to the appeal of that record. So why not "wrong"
> notes, "flat" singing, "out-of synch" drums, etc., if the result sounds
> great? Lets call it "improvisation".
I agree 1000% in the case of "Sally" -- there's no other record
like it, and its spell is just as strong now as it was nearly 40
years ago. But it would be hard to argue that the out-of-synch
drums in "Wild Weekend" "sound great". They just sound wrong, and
detract from rather than add to the song's impact. Again, I'm not
saying I dislike the song as a whole...I like it well enough. But
you would have to stretch a point to say it was a good thing that
the drummer got out of whack on it.
Mike
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Message: 8
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:32:32 -0000
From: Fred Clemens
Subject: Re: British cover versions
Howard:
> Another interest of mine is 'British cover versions'.
> I have a decent collection of them, but still on the
> search for many more! Has anyone heard or have details
> of First Gears version of Dobie Gray's 'The In Crowd?
Haven't heard of that one.
But have you heard the Kestrels "There Comes A Time", a cover of the
Jack Scott song. It's from 1959, and was flipped with "In The Chapel
In The Moonlight". Released on the Pye-Nixa label (which soon became
Pye, it was available on both labels), it was their only release to
make it to the US, on Laurie Records in 1960. The group was fronted
by Roger Greenaway, and also included Tony Burrows. They lasted until
1964, a later member being Roger Cook. Of course you know David and
Jonathan... (Roger and Roger), and the Pipkins (Roger Greenaway and
Tony Burrows).
The Kestrels toured with the early Beatles, and backed a few British
acts along the way (Billy Fury, Lonnie Donegan, and Benny Hill). They
were also lucky enough to record the Beatles, "There's A Place".
Another odd cover I brought up in an earlier thread would be Kenny
Lynch's cover/remake of Bill Giant's "Poof", but as "Puff (Up In
Smoke)". Lynch is also said to be the first non-Beatle to have
recorded a Lennon-McCartney song, "Misery", a song turned down by
Helen Shapiro. Lynch happened to be on the same tour when it was
offered to Helen's manager.
And you must have Dave Newmann's cover of the then US Hit by Robert
John, "The Lion Sleeps Tonight". He even did his best to sound like
Robert.
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Message: 9
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:11:31 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Fingertips
Steveo wrote:
> How about the bass player who gets lost and is asking on
> Stevie Wonder's first big hit ("Fingertips"), "What key...
> what key?" (lol) I love it!
The way I always heard it, there was a change of band
personnel onstage, as it was thought Stevie was finished
with the song. So when he came back to the mic to reprise
a verse, the new bass guy was caught unawares.
This explanation certainly makes more sense, as Stevie is
singing in the same key he's sung the rest of the song in,
so the original bass player would have known what it was.
But if there's another, "official" explanation at what
happened at this moment, I'd love to hear it.
Mike
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Message: 10
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:17:54 -0600
From: Skip Woolwine
Subject: How about brilliant tracks with ONE inept ingredient
At the end of Glen Campbell's vocal on "Guess I'm Dumb"
which appears on The Honeys' recent compilation of various
Brian Wilson productions, you plainly hear someone - probably
Brian - exclaim "Awesome!" over the talkback among the music track.
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Message: 11
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:17:47 -0000
From: Mary
Subject: the first mouseketeers?
Does anyone know where the first mouseketeers are?
Do they still live here in Southern Calif? Looking for:
Dennis Day, Cubby O'Brien, Dorren, Darlene, Karen, Tommy,
Lonny, Bobby. And is Annette doing ok these days?
Thank you for any info....
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Message: 12
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:15:52 -0000
From: Martin Roberts
Subject: Kane & Abel and The Taylor Brothers
A new batch of records revealed a few pleasant surprises,
one of the most interesting being The Taylor Brothers "Showdown",
United 98. A wonderful mid-60s Four Seasons' homage, with a
Shangri-Las twist, the middle break features a "Leader of The
Pack" semi-spoken section, complete with "Kill 'im, Kill 'im"
and "Yeah, we hear he's got a bad reputation"!
A BIG production and one I'll play to musica when space permits.
The main credit on this obscure label is James Butler co-writer,
arranger and conductor. On the B-Side "Your Last Chance", a more
traditional Four Seasons clone (i.e. also fab) it states, "Recorded
In Chicago" and all the credits belong to Mr. Butler. Now I'd like
to think he's Artie's brother but if not...
We've discussed James Holvay's super Righteous Brothers-styled
homage to Phil Spector by Kane and Abel many times. First released
as "Break Down And Cry" on Destination and then as "He Will Break
Your Heart" on Red Bird, now the record is so good I'm glad they
played it twice with albeit slight differences.
James wrote an informative and fascinating account of the original
recording (message #14528) the only omission being the name of the
astute engineer, the credit on the label reveals him to be Stu Black.
Besides no engineer credit on the Red Bird release the other credits
remain more or less the same. With one major difference, 'Peterson'
has joined Mr Holvay as co-writer. I'd assumed this was a biz credit,
"I'll put your record on a big label you give me a cut on the take",
sorta thing. But...a BMI search apparently revels that James Butler
(Peterson) are one and the same.
Perhaps James Holvay can fill in the blanks?
Martin
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Message: 13
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:50:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Steveo
Subject: Re: 24 Hours From Tulsa-Guitar part
Guy Lawrence wrote:
> A friend once told me that the Gene Pitney's "24 Hours
> from Tulsa" contains just such a moment. Apparently,
> the ding!-ding!-ding! notes played on the guitar as
> Gene sings his final "What can I do?" are actually
> the guitarist using a common session musician's code
> to signal that he has just made a mistake. The moment
> comes at 2.36 on my CD copy. Surely someone out there
> will know if this story is true.
Guy,
Concerning the 3 guitar notes ar 2:36 on 24 Hours From
Tulsa,I just had to respond to this one, as it was one
of my favorite records for a long time... Knowing the
concept of the soft guitar lead, used also on "Donna
Means Heartbreak", I believe the guitar part is playing
a triplet with the first part of the triplet silent.
I believe that was all it was, an artistic expression,
instead of a signal for a mistake..Would be interested
to know if otherwise.
Steveo
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Message: 14
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:26:36 -0000
From: Monophonius
Subject: Re: 4 Seasons drummer
Buddy Saltzman was the 4 Seasons' drummer on the early hits
like "Big Girls Don't Cry", "Walk Like A Man", et al.
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Message: 15
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:28:15 -0800 (PST)
From: steveo
Subject: Re: Ineptness: "There Goes My Baby"
ACJ wrote:
> Okay, here's my contribution to the "ineptness" discussion.
> I've never understood why the Drifters' "There Goes My Baby"
> has those two tympani rumbling away in the background, neither
> of which is in tune with the rest of he song. Perhaps there's
> a story behind it?
Andrew,
Regarding "there Goes My Baby":There was a write up in an old
magazine about this record. When arranger Ray Ellis heard the
playbacks of this song he arranged, he said, I believe it was
to Leiber and Stoller, "You're not really gonna release this
piece of crap are you?" (referring to the fact that it sounded
all out of tune, etc.) I believe the duo songwriting team or
someone like Wexler or Ertegun thought it was haunting sounding,
and had a "Certain sound"...indeed it did!
Steveo
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Message: 16
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:59:51 GMT
From: Mark
Subject: Two Big Welcomes!
Hi and welcome to two legends, Mr. Lloyd Thaxton and
Mr. Artie Butler. You've both found one of the most
happening groups on the Net! :)
Best,
Mark
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Message: 17
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:46:50 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: Grapefruit?
Mark Wirtz wrote:
> re: the pretense "One More Try" (now that I have heard it):
> THAT track is an insult to Grapefruit's talents, and
> even at my "cheesiest", I didn't revel quite THAT deeply
> in muzak mediocrity.
> P.S. THIS was produced by THE Terry Melcher??
Mark - I sent you the track called "Theme for Twiggy." We haven't
confirmed that it's the same track as "Give it One More Try." But
either way it's not representative of the quality of the record.
Though I prefer the McCartney-produced version of "Lullaby", the
album is mostly stunning, fully released, Beatlesque pop. Well done
by Mr Melcher and considered one of the crown jewels of the early
Apple era.
Now about "cheezy": when do you think you were at your "cheesiest".
I'm dying to know! ;>))
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Message: 18
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:19:43 GMT
From: Mark: clevesoulie@netzero.com
Subject: Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
Hey Guys!
I have to thank my good friend, Outsiders guitarist Tom King,
for pointing this one out to me some time back.
It's in "Johnny B. Goode" by Chuck Berry, during the first
guitar solo: the piano player is supposed to hit a note on
the piano with the rest of the band, but he's off by a second
and it's very audible.
Best,
Mark
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:11:35 EST
From: John Fox
Subject: Re: Jan & Dean, and our new Spectropoppers
previsouly:
Even their premiere "Baby Talk" was dismal.
Jan's even earlier premiere, "Jennie Lee" by Jan & Arnie, was worse! Talk
about unintelligible at any speed--I defy anyone to listen to that record and
come up with one word that's being sung, other then "Oh Jennie Lee".
On a separate, more serious note, I loved the comment about Artie Butler
being asked the Shangri-Las middle names. If any of you ever saw the Saturday
Night Live routine where William Shatner attends a Star Trek convention and gets
bombarded with trivia questions from Trekkie nerds about specific episodes, it
was hysterical, but I hope we show folks like Artie and Lloyd Thaxton some
respect by not inundating them with minutiae-related questions. I think Mary
Weiss' middle name is Ginsberg.
John Fox
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Message: 20
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 03:53:13 -0000
From: Michael Edwards
Subject: Drummer on 4 Seasons' "Dawn"
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Speaking of the 4 Seasons, can anyone tell me who the
> fantastic drummer was on such songs as "Dawn (Go Away)"
I was able to get a question in to the great arranger,
Charlie Calello and he says, without hesitation, that
Buddy Saltzman was the drummer on "Dawn". Not that I
know who Buddy was; I'm just passing this on.
Mike
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Message: 21
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:35:20 -0500
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Rapper DJs' use of vinyl records
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Okay - here's the question. Everything the turntable
> guy was doing could (surely?) be done by keyboards or
> backing tapes if they're looping/repeating sounds. It
> almost seems that all the guy is really doing is making
> the scratching noise itself. If so, how pathetic is that?
Not pathetic anymore than a tambourine player or a go go girl
is pathetic. The scratching is a sound that's part of the
production backdrop. And different points on different records
yield different sounding scratch effects. Not for everyone to
be sure. And probably especially for people who revere old music
more than new. But I certainly have no problem with it. I like
lip-synching too. And go go girls. Even more.
> So, given all that - I'm thinking that the reason the
> turntable guy is included as part of a live act is to
> look cool.
Everything a band does to perform is done to look cool. No?
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 22:35:12 -0500
From: Rat Pfink
Subject: Re: British cover versions
Howard:
> Another interest of mine is 'British cover versions'.
> I have a decent collection of them, but still on the
> search for many more! Has anyone heard or have details
> of First Gears version of Dobie Gray's 'The In Crowd?
Fred:
> Haven't heard of that one.
I just played First Gear's version of "The 'In' Crowd"
to musica.
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Message: 23
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 23:28:25 -0600
From: David Salter
Subject: Re: Jill Gibson
Mark F:
> Oh boy, I agree! I think Gary Zekley mentions her knack for
> phrasing and melody in an interview somewhere. Does anyone
> know what she's doing these days?
Mark, To see what Jill Gibson's up to these days go to:
http://www.gibsonarts.com/
David
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Message: 24
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:05:12 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Fingertips
Steveo wrote:
> How about the bass player who gets lost and is asking on
> Stevie Wonder's first big hit ("Fingertips"), "What key...
> what key?" (lol) I love it!
Mike McKay:
>The way I always heard it, there was a change of band
>personnel onstage, as it was thought Stevie was finished
>with the song. So when he came back to the mic to reprise
>a verse, the new bass guy was caught unawares.
>This explanation certainly makes more sense, as Stevie is
>singing in the same key he's sung the rest of the song in,
>so the original bass player would have known what it was.
>But if there's another, "official" explanation at what
>happened at this moment, I'd love to hear it.
This certainly seems true, although it's possible that the
fact that Stevie was performing in a different key than the
one he'd recorded the song in originally might have added
to the confusion.
Joe Nelson
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:19:36 -0000
From: Mick Patrick
Subject: Re: Alder Ray / Gerri Granger
Phil Hall:
> Just so you'll know, I clicked the link on your post for a photo
> of Alder Ray, and after following the instructions on the page
> explicitly, I got the message "Sorry, no matches found for 'Alder
> Ray'". Are there any photos anywhere else?
Doh! The link I gave *does* work. But try this one instead:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/spectropop/ Click on each
image for a larger version. And while you're there, look in the
"Miscellaneous" for loads more great photos.
> As it's not out on CD - well, not to my knowledge - Gerri
> Granger's "Just Tell Him Jane Said Hello" (Big Top 3150, 1963)
> is now playing @ musica. Gerri deserves a whole CD of her own.
> Fat chance, I guess. "Stick Close", anyone?
Brian Davy:
> Mick - Thanks for answering my request. Any chance that this
> song might end up on one of your future compilations?
Yes. it's scheduled for a forthcoming Leiber & Stoller compilation
on Ace. But don't hold your breath because the Big Top logo is
notoriously difficult to license. Something to do with the feuding
Bienstock multi-millionaires who owned the logo.
Hey la,
Mick Patrick
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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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