Spectropop V#0210

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   Volume #0210                        January 14, 1998   
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Unbreakable Long Playing Monophonic Microgroove Recording




Subject:     Re: Dave Clark stereo mixes
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Brad Elliott, surXXXXXXXXnline.net
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Greg wrote:

>> On one of the last DC5 comps that Epic released, I
>> think it was called "The Dave Clark Five," there are some
>> beautiful stereo mixes.

Then, Paul commented:

>Most of the
>DC5 stuff came out in reprocessed mono on Epic because Dave
>didn't do stereo mixes. In the 70's EMI issued a stereo album of
>the stuff which I have. There was an article in Billboard where
>the engineer that did the remixes criticized them.

The album that Greg refers to is indeed called simply THE DAVE 
CLARK FIVE, and it indeed is full of beautiful stereo mixes -- 
20 of them, in fact the entire contents of the double album. The
album was released in 1971, so it may very well contain the same 
stereo mixes as EMI issued (I'm presuming that was in England). 
But the fact is that some of the DC5 stuff on Epic was NOT 
reprocessed mono!

The album, with a gatefold cover, is Epic EG 30434. I've got a 
promo copy that I found years ago. I never thought this was rare, 
but I've never compared notes with a Dave Clark Five collector, so 
I really don't know (although, come to think about I, I don't guess 
I've ever seen another copy). The lineup (all in stereo) is as 
follows:

Side 1:
Glad All Over
Can't You See That She's Mine
I Need Love
Good Love Is Hard to Find
Try Too Hard

Side 2:
Because
'Til the Right One Comes Along
Whenever You're Around
Remember It's Me
When I'm Alone

Side 3:
Having a Wild Week-end
Sitting Here Baby
Concentration Baby
Please Tell Me Why
Inside and Out

Side 4:
Come Home
I'll Be Your My Love
Forever and a Day
Bernedette
Hurting Inside

These are not simple two-track recordings, but rather 
multi-track recordings mixed to stereo. A few of the earlier 
things probably are mixed from three- or four-track, but some of
the later stuff had to have been done on eight-track tape, with 
doubled lead vocals and orchestral backings. If these are the 
remixes that were criticized by the engineer, then he's NUTS! 
This stuff would make a great CD! Paul, is this the same stuff 
on that EMI album?

Surf's up!
Brad


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Subject:     Re: Stereo mixes
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Stewart Mason, flamXXXXXXXXcom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Paul Urbahns wrote:

>You'll just have to live with the monos. The difference between 
>Dave Clark and the Beatles producer, George Martin, was George 
>tried to rewrite history by saying the Beatles albums were not 
>issued in stereo in the past, which they were. The DC5 stuff was 
>rechanneled and not in true stereo in the 60s, so in this respect 
>Clark should not be compared to George Martin.

I'll have to look this up to be absolutely sure, but I'm 99% 
positive that what George Martin actually said was that with 
Beatles records up to (and including?) the white album, the mono
mix was the one which he and the engineers spent the most time 
and care on, with the stereo mixes done quickly and almost as an
afterthought.

It reflects poorly on my credentials as a 60s pop fan, but I 
have to admit that the stereo-vs-mono debate usually means 
little to me. The primary benefit of CDs like Our Alec's 
exemplary ODESSEY AND ORACLE reissue, where the album is 
presented in stereo and then in mono, is that I can listen to 
the album twice in a row without having to get up.

Having said that, I did find the stereo mix of PET SOUNDS on 
last year's box set endlessly fascinating, simply because it was
a chance to hear and isolate certain instruments in the 
arrangements, and to detect sounds I'd barely registered before.
I did the same thing as a teenager in the mid-80s with a 
quadrophonic copy of DARK SIDE OF THE MOON I bought from Paradox
Mail Order in Torrance, CA. The mix was just different enough to 
be oddly intriguing. Are there any other notably interesting 
stereo/mono mix differences?

Stewart


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Subject:     Dave Clark
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Billy G. wrote:

> Until some time in 1967, all of the DC-5's recordings had been 
> mixed in mono only. It's probably the usual reasons why they 
> were done this way; mono was more popular in England during the 
> mid 60's, teenagers bought more mono records than stereo, 
> records were mixed for AM radio, etc. I think the mono mixes are
> great. 

According to an interview I saw with Dave Clark in some 
documentary he referred to the Dave Clark 5 as having a 
"commerical sound" he knew what he wanted a loud commerical sound. I 
guess if he had worked in stereo from the beginning it would 
have cost twice as much to fill two channels as one. 

David Bash wrote:

> A few years ago he led people to believe that he would lease The
> Dave Clark Five's proper albums and got several of his fans' hopes 
> up.

David,

The DC5 two disk set did not set the world on fire like the 
beatles reissues did. Therefore, I bet he's having trouble 
finding anybody interested. A few DC5 songs have shown up on 
movie CDs but the original albums (as I undertand it) were quite
lame. I'd like to see a CD or rare or previously unissued stuff 
from him. I heard he was going to cut hang On Sloopy but the 
McCoys issued there version, is his still in the can? But 
honestly only a handful of collectors would buy something like 
that.

Paul Urbahns
paulurXXXXXXXXom


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Subject:     Moore info
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Jamie LePage, le_pageXXXXXXXXties.com
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Richard Globman wrote:

>The group that tours around the southeast is called "Bill 
>Pinkney and the Original Drifters".  Your post mentions Clyde 
>McPhatter and Johnny Moore as the chief honchos...
>
>Where does Bill Pinkney fit in here?

When I learned Johnny Moore had passed away, and that he sang on
several Drifters sides, I realized I needed a refresher course in
Drifters history. Clyde McPhatter, Ahmet Ertegun, Jerry Wexler, 
Bacharach/David, Ben E. King, Leiber & Stoller...all familiar 
names, but Johnny Moore? Well, I wanted to learn more and 
started doing some digging around in various books, articles and
notes. In doing so, I compiled my findings into the Johnny Moore 
post hoping our New York R&B aficionado listers would chime in 
(hint, hint).

A short passage from Charlie Gillett's book Making Tracks, page 
93:

QUOTE
Ahmet Ertegun: "One of my favorite groups at the time was the 
Dominoes. I used to go and see them at the Apollo.... One day I 
went to Birdland, and Clyde wasn't there. I liked his high voice, 
and the way he sang, so I went backstage and said to Billy 
(Ward), 'Where's Clyde?' And he said 'Oh, we fired him'....

"(I) had dinner (with Clyde) the next day, and signed him up.

"...he had another group of friends who were really good, gospel
singers called the Thrasher Wonders, one of them could sound just
like the bass of the Dominoes...."

The new formation, baritone **Bill Pinkney** and the brothers 
Andrew and Gerhart Thrasher, completed the lineup of Clyde 
McPhatter and the Drifters. END QUOTE

So, yes, Pinkney was in the original McPhatter line up. This 
first incarnation of the Drifters, under the direction of Ahmet 
Ertegun and Jerry Wexler, had the 1953 hit Money Honey and a great 
personal favorite, the 1954 hit Honey Love. After a stint in the
service, McPhatter was persuaded to go solo. As I mentioned in my
earlier post, George Treadwell owned the rights to the name 
"Drifters." So McPhatter's leaving eventually led to Treadwell 
bringing in the Ben King line up to record as the Drifters, and 
it is that line up that we so strongly associate with Leiber and
Stoller, even though in fact Ben King cut less than a dozen sides
as the Drifters lead.

Scott Bauman wrote:

>>'Under The Boardwalk' reportedly features Phil Spector on 
>>guitar. . . .

>I know that Phil played guitar on "On Broadway."  Did he also 
>play guitar on "Under the Boardwalk"?

Again from Making Tracks, page 167:

QUOTE
Mike Stoller: "We signed (Phil) up to write and produce for us, 
gave him some advances, and Jerry Leiber let him stay at his 
house for a while. Phil started writing, with Jerry and some 
other people, and Jerry took him to a lot of sessions, employed 
him on quite a few as guitarist." UNQUOTE

While it is acknowledged that Phil played the guitar on "On 
Broadway," there is ample evidence that he also played on a 
number of other Leiber/Stoller records from this time. From the 
book "The Phil Spector Story" by Rob Finnis, page 31:

QUOTE
Leiber and Stoller began using Phil as a session guitarist 
cum-factotum. They were heavily involved with Atlantic at the 
time and Spector played session-guitar with the Coasters 
("Shopping For Clothes", Thumbing a Ride") La Vern Baker ("Saved" 
b/w "Don Juan") and the Drifters ("Sweets For My Sweet"). UNQUOTE

Finnis goes on to say that Spector, surprisingly, did NOT 
play guitar at the Stand By Me session (during which they also 
cut three Phil co-writes), but according to Finnis, Phil 
did play on King's "Ecstasy" and "Yes" cut a year later.

As to Under The Boardwalk, I picked up that info from one of the
wire service obits on Johnny Moore (thus my use of the word 
"reportedly"). Does anyone have a fairly reliable list of Leiber/
Stoller dates on which Spector was employed as guitarist?

I am (finally) off to get the much touted Drifters box set this 
weekend...

--
All the best,
Jamie LePage 


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Subject:     Original Drifters
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

In a message dated 1/12/99 5:44:00 PM Eastern Standard Time,
spectrXXXXXXXXties.com writes:

> The group that tours around the southeast is called "Bill 
> Pinkney and the Original Drifters". Your post mentions Clyde 
> McPhatter and Johnny Moore as the chief honchos...
> 
> Where does Bill Pinkney fit in here?
> 
> DICKYG

Bill Pickney is in fact the Original Drifters. Most fans already
know that there were two Drifters groups on the hits. The 
original hits were by The Drifters and Bill Pickney was in the 
group. They had hits on Honey Love, and others very similiar to 
what the Coasters were doing. Leiber & Stoller owned the name to
the Drifters and fired the whole group over a dispute. They hired
another group (The Five Crowns? I think was the name) and had 
them record as the Drifters. That's when the sound changed from 
R&B (Pickney's group) to sleek pop (Moore, McPhatter, and others). 
Bill tried for years to get the group name back because they 
used it before joining up with Leiber & Stoller but never filed 
papers. Finally the courts agreed he was entitled to use the 
name "The Original Drifters" because they were.

That's it in a nutshell

Paul Urbahns
paulurXXXXXXXXom


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Subject:     Sue Thompson
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Carol,

Your comments about switching instruments reminded me of a story
Sue Thompson told me about a session of hers. From my upcoming 
Discoveries article:


Recording "Norman" was a little trickier than recording "Sad 
Movies."  For one thing, producer Jim Hall felt that the single 
trombone on the song was a bit thin, that the track needed more 
"Oomph."  Sue: "So Jim asked if anyone else in the band played 
the trombone. Boots Randolph said, 'Sure, I do,' and he went out
and got his trombone. A guitarist also got his trombone, and they
all three played. Later, Boots told a lot of people, "'Norman' is
the only hit record that I ever played trombone on!'"

Why was the trombone even used on the song?


Funny thing, though. If you pay attention to Sue's vocal on 
"Norman," you can hear that she lags slightly behind the band on 
much of her vocals. It is hardly noticeable, because somehow, it
seems to fit the pace of the song -- like she cannot keep up with
her own enthusiasm for Norman. Sue can explain that.

"I didn't want to do 'Norman.'  I was talked into it, and of 
course I was happy after I learned the song. But when I first 
heard it, I said, 'That is a really cute song, but it's not for 
me.'  My delivery was always very, very slow. I spoke slowly, 
and for some reason I had a hard time singing fast songs. I 
think my singing slightly after the beat came from my early days
of wanting to be a band singer. I always listened to and admired 
Ella Fitzgerald, who always sang behind the beat. Ella 
Fitzgerald, Mildrid Baily, Lady Day, people like that didn't 
sing right on the beat. They put more expression into their 
songs by being themselves. They sang within a musical structure,
but not right on the beat. I think my singing that way on 'Norman' 
may have come from that.

"I used to have a hard time figuring out what 'meter' was. The 
singing on 'Norman' was set for me. Boudleaux was a fine 
musician, and he knew my pattern. I couldn't stay in meter with 
that song until Boudleaux added the trombone part, '
bom-bom-bom-bom,' just before the word 'Norman.'  I could not 
keep in meter until he added that. He did it on the guitar when 
I was learning that song while staying at their home on the old 
Hickory Lake. That was how I learned most of the songs I did 
early on Hickory records. Roy Acuff and Wesley Rose and Fred 
Rose and Boudleaux and Felice all lived around Hickory Lake.


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Subject:     A gifted, talented and socially "aware" Phil Spector
Received:    01/14/99 7:26 am
From:        R Teyes, RTXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

To Scott, Greg and Others:

Re: Bumps statement that Phil stole his music from Blacks: 
Nonsense! A gifted, talented and socially "aware" Phil Spector 
never stole from any "minority" group their music.. He only 
influenced HIS  songs  with other ethnic rhytms and beats. Be My
Baby has castanets and shakers that we Latinos can easily 
attribute to our culture-as a matter of fact, we are highly 
proud that a talented young man from a Jewish background is able
to pay homage to our basic rhythms and actually make hits of them! 
Phil used Black singers because they were the best at the time
he wrote these songs or produced them. He didn't force them to 
sing-despite paying them low salaries. Fair is fair-Phil was an 
aggressive, hostile and talented little man that made stars of 
unknowns.

As for the guitar Phil supposedly plays in a few Drifters songs,
no one really knows for sure because Phil hasn't made this claim.
I know he has said that he produced countless songs before making
it. Some of these songs were never released. I know because I was
his "coffee boy" here in New York. I had never heard Phil say 
anything derogatory about anyone else but the distributors he 
hated. And I am also fair enough to say he banished ME sometimes
from the studios when I became a nusiance. (I was 15 or 16 at the
time). Gregg, is the documentary you mention the one PBS showed 
some years ago? I do have that one.

Robert the Ronette Hound


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Subject:     Phil & Bumps
Received:    1/13/99 1:23 PM
From:        Carol Kaye, carolXXXXXXXXlink.net
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

You know, I never heard anything like that about Bumps Blackwell
accusing Phil of stealing black sounds. I knew Bumps Blackwell 
very well and I don't think he'd say anything like that publicly, 
although he might have "thought it" (back then) - but there 
again, I'm guessing -- I never heard him say things like that 
even in private - just never heard that.

Bumps was a gracious man, he was in love with the Hollywood era,
and justly so, he started a lot of great producing things and was
a fine musician himself (played vibes, I worked a nice jazz gig 
with him a couple of times, his brother Charley was a fine 
drummer and he did some of the Sam Cooke stuff too, but of 
course it was usually Earl Palmer on drums on dates).

Bumps spoke very smoothly, was a good person, had a lot of 
talent producing, had fine musical taste always, and I always 
liked working for him. He always meant well, and was a big part 
of the producing scene here, knew how to put a great hit record 
together (way before Phil and H.B.) and influenced MANY MANY 
people here in LA.

He truly made a star out of the fine Sam Cooke while being the 
manager of Little Richard, put together some of the finest 
background pop singers (the best in the biz) instead of going 
the other way, it was semi-jazz almost in sounds, something 
others would have never done. He raised the level of recording 
taste, and I thought he was very good to work for.

Bumps had respect for good musicians and was very straight with 
me -- had he been anything but a perfect gentleman and straight 
with the business and music end, I'd have never wanted to stay 
in studio work -- he admired you if you could play and had 
respect for everyone.

When I first met him, couldn't believe how nice he was, and sort
of doubted his "credentials" but the band knew him so I thought 
he was all right then.

I grew to love working for Bumps who had a nice wife, he was 
nice to other people; I met many other fine jazz musicians 
through him -- he was proud of the way I played and wasn't a 
Henry Higgins with me at all, just my employer but a good friend
kind of too.

Bumps however, did promise a lot more work than I got through 
him and others, so had to get another day job (this time as 
technical typist on the top-secret missile maintenance manuals 
at Bendix, haha, and there I was playing the wild jazz clubs, 
taking off for occasional record dates and cleared for 
top-secret -- but they were right in hiring me, my lips were 
sealed) for about 2-3 years before I finally was able to make 
enough in studio work to quit my day job (was supporting 4 of us
back in 1957-1960 as a young girl).

Bumps Blackwell was a good guy, and I owe him a lot. He died 
about 1985 and one of his last projects was to try to record Yma
Sumac who I met. I wasn't in good shape but he hired me to cut 
some bass on his attempt at doing some commercial recording for 
the very nice Yma -- I had always been a fan of hers, and she 
was a very nice lady. Middle-aged by this time but still had 
that bird-high voice of hers, really something. Bumps was trying
for hit records until the very end.

And I understand Charley died up in Montana or Wash. somewhere, 
his son is here in LA and rooms w/someone I know, so will be 
having lunch with him sometime soon. Those days with Bumps, Sam 
Cooke, Rene Hall, Earl, Charley Blackwell all mean a lot to me 
(it was Lou Rawls too who sung backup for Sammy) -- tough times 
in a way, but honest in the music.

Well....actually..about Phil and the "black sounds", Phil did 
use black musicians, and we were all throwing some musical ideas
in the pot on his records, altho' Jack Nitzsche did turn out some
fine arrangements (and Gene Page too) -- Jack started out as the 
gofer for H.B. Barnum, another pioneer talent of the LA 
recording scene, who really never got his due for what he got 
started here in LA.

Jack's wife (then) Gracia, was the studio singer who could sing 
the highest of notes, great back-up singer, nice gal, always 
loved Gracia, never could understand why they split up.

Jack, while doing copying for H.B. learn arranging skills well -
and it was always rush-rush, sometimes H.B. would be arranging
right up to the minute of the date, with Jack right there rushing
the copying off as we would be recording the 1st of the 4 tunes. 
H.B. now is musical conductor (has been for years) for Lou Rawls
and Aretha.

You use black talent playing on the dates, black singers, and 
white people who spent years playing in jazz clubs with black 
jazz groups, of course some of it will come out sounding black -
that was the best and most fun grooves to play back then. Phil, 
I think, was drawn to black soul music too.

Claudia thanks for your kind words, I was lucky a lot of the 
time too. Had I been a "jazz white female sax player" instead of
a guitar player in late 1957, I don't think I'd have been 
in-demand for studio work -- guitar players ruled back then, was
lucky to be in the right place, right time, etc. and made the 
right decision to do studio work and not stay in the jazz clubs 
(well actually my kids made it for me, and I thank them, all 3 
turned out the best, again very lucky as I wasn't a great 
stay-at-home mom....).

Yes, I can see Roseanne going for the "image" thing, rather than
the knowledgeable thing about who these writers really were -- 
that's the "staritis" of Hollywood (and the world actually) I 
can't stand -- too much emphasis placed on image and "stardoms" 
and nothing much on all the talent it took to put them there.

Makes people feel bad if they're "not stars" I think in their 
daily lives, at least some -- especially the kids in school who 
think that's the "only thing to aim for". It's a shame that she 
didn't do her homework, for she had a chance to lead the public 
in "recognition of credit where credit is due"......called 
appreciation.

With River Deep Mountain High, I truly thought it was going to 
be another big hit for Phil. Maybe the public was tired of the 
"wall of sound", maybe the tune wasn't strong enough, etc. lots 
of things come into play. It certainly had the ballsy sound, 
fine arrangement, and intense performances on it. Sure felt good
to record that one at Gold Star. Glad it was a big hit in England.

BTW, I just heard from Jewel Aikens, we talked for awhile, nice 
nice man, so good to hear from him, he says he's been singing in
Las Vegas, thinking of doing some more recording and some live 
things here in LA too. (I played guitar through the Leslie organ
speaker on "Birds And The Bees", we talked about how much fun to 
cut that and other nice things he did too -- at Gold Star).

I heard from Janis Ian too (email), two of my favorite people to
record for in the 60s -- it doesn't get any better than this, 
things in the offing.

Best, Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/


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