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Volume #0411 April 26, 2000
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The utmost reproduction of the original sound
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Subject: RE: "I'll Never Need...."
Received: 04/26/00 2:37 am
From: Phil Chapman
To: Spectropop!
Ian Chapman wrote
> Well, Jamie, I have to confess to preferring Ike & Tina's
> "I'll Never Need More Than This" way above its "sister"
> record, "River Deep, Mountain High". I think "Never" is a
> much more emotional song, and a far better showcase of
> Tina's vocal ability.
I also kind of prefer "I'll Never Need....", although I
think it was partly because "RDMH" was played to death
on the radio. I have experimented over the years to work
out why, as you observe, "I'll Never..." 45 is so much
more powerful than the stereo (or the CD reissue for that
matter). My own theory is to do with the complex
compression effect of the cutting lathe on 45s. I have
treated the stereo mix to a succession of simulations
using programs like Sound Forge & Cool Edit and got pretty
close. Compare the 45 cut of "Baby I Love You" with the
album, same mix but quite different sounding. And, with
the exception of US Motown 45s which were incredible, The
Crystals "I Wonder" on the UK 45rpm is the loudest thing
I've heard - the needles shudder during the intro and then
jam at maximum for the remainder of the tune:-) ...and
that's called LOUD
Phil
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Subject: Re: "River Deep Mountain High"
Received: 04/25/00 1:33 am
From: WASE RADIO
To: Spectropop!
I can remember the first time I ever heard "River Deep
Mountain High" on the radio was on a Louisville, Ky. radio
in the summer of 1968. This is not a typo on the year. WKLO
radio was playing this song as one of three songs on "voice
your choice". I remembered that the same song came in
second on the listener's choice program.
I heard the song a couple of more times on the radio. I
even taped it off the radio-and I can recall how much
"River Deep Mountain High" gave me a tremendous adrenaline
rush. Afterwards, I never heard it until I bought the 2 LP
set "Phil Spector's Greatest Hits".
It was the same way I had heard it except in stereo. When
I got more into radio and oldies, I was surprised to
discover that it was released in the spring of 1966 to a
somewhat indifferent American audience. But it was number 3
in England. I think the reason that RDMH was a flop in
America was the song was so overwhelming. It was emotional
from start to finish, especially the huge orchestral swells
on the chorus and the huge scream that Tina gives out for
two seconds, linking the middle eight back to the last
chorus. It was and still is a tremendous song. Mark
Ribowsky, the author of an 1989 book on Spector, put it
best. He said that "River Deep Mountain High" sounded like
it was "recorded tomorrow".
Michael G. Marvin
WASE radio
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: RDMH
Received: 04/26/00 2:37 am
From: Phil Chapman
To: Spectropop!
Ron Bierma wrote:
> << >>>>>Or why it was so popular in England?<<<<
>
> Having been a bass player on this hit and working for Phil
> on most of his dates (there's many that Larry Levine forgot
> about in his article like Howard Roberts etc. who were
> regulars on Phil's dates etc.), we were all expecting this
> to be his greatest hit yet. He was a great producer, but
> kept in that "wall of sound" mode maybe too long and
> eventually styles did change. >>
At the time the journalistic wisdom was that the charts in
the States were becoming polarised between black soul/r&b,
and white pop/rock. "River Deep..." was considered too
black for the white charts, & vice versa. Certainly Phil's
disdain for the music industry was beginning to turn in on
him, which didn't help. In retrospect I think America was
ahead of the UK in as much as they were moving away from
from 'walls of sound' where individual musicianship was
subjugated to create an overall effect, heralding the next
generation of popular recordings. Ironically Spector's
techniques have been subtly employed in many 'corporate
rock' productions to produce a larger-than-life 'real'
sound. I'm sure Darlene has her reasons for being somewhat
sour in her recount of the sessions, by then she must have
been aware that she may well have been repeatedly taken
advantage of on a business level. "River Deep..." is a
well-crafted song, the rhythm may have been influenced by
"My World Is Empty Without You" which was in the charts at
the time featuring an innovative two-bar bass rhythm. If
you set aside the reality element and consider "River
Deep..." purely on the level of soundwaves emanating from
loudspeakers it is an overwhelming experience, dark,
sensual, climactic. I will never ever forget the profound
effect of the first time I heard it. And to me that is the
mark of genius - the capacity to convey emotions through an
art form, sound being one of the most abstract art forms.
Phil
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Pretty Deep
Received: 04/26/00 2:37 am
From: Jamie LePage
To: Spectropop!
Ron Bierma took the time to quote from Darlene Love's book
"My Name is Love":
>This time [the track for RDMH] was all din, no music.
I'm suspicious already.
>He kept overdubbing the backup singers, and by the time
>[Tina] got to about the fortieth take, she was screaming
>and losing her voice...And that's exactly how Phil wanted
>her to sound, like a woman on the verge of submission.
In my opinion, it was very effective, and although it was
apparently not Darlene's intention to glorify Spector in
this passage, I gotta respect the producer who achieves
his desired effect more than a producer who only
comes close. In the case of RDMH, I think Spector
surpassed even his own expectations.
>It was a Wall of Sound, all right: a wall of water,
>and everyone was drowning.
Clever analogy, that.
>Ellie Greenwich told me that when she got an acetate of
>the recording, she ripped it off the turntable before it
>was halfway through and threw it across the room. Ellie
>thought Phil had really lost it.
Ellie was so angry she literally "ripped" the disc off the
turntable, you see. Can't you just hear the needle
scratching across the grooves as Ellie, in a rage,
destroys her demo copy of a potentially huge hit Spector
production of her latest song. I don't believe any of this.
At all. If anything, I think she would listen
attentively until the end, then listen again, and if she
absolutely hated it, I think she would be dumb struck with
disbelief, not prone to a burst of violence that would
destroy her reference disc! Writers often like to live
with their recordings for a time before making a
conclusive judgment. Ellie, who was very aware of the
fortune Spector brought her from the very beginning even
before Jeff started writing with her, would have been
curious to hear it again and no matter what, she would
want to play it for others irrespective of her initial
reaction. Besides, she was quite used to Spector shelving
his productions of her songs by this time, and she is
known to have "covered" these shelved songs herself with
the Dixie Cups etc., and surely she would have wanted to
keep this acetate for that reason alone. Now if Spector
had tried to scoop her by secretly releasing his own
version of a Barry/Greenwich tune just before a planned
Red Bird release, then an expression of violence at
hearing his record is plausible. But otherwise...this just
doesn't ring true.
>True, we all thought the record was crap, but it
>deserved a little better than # 88, which is where it
>crashed and burned.
I don't know who "we all" is supposed to mean, but it's
interesting that Darlene, who rattles off Billboard chart
numbers as if telling the writer the age of her children,
takes it upon herself to speak for "everyone". This just
does not sound like Darlene Wright talking. I know there
is or was some animosity toward Phil regarding royalties
and shelved Darlene Love recordings, but these passages
sound way too much like a TV movie.
Carol wrote:
>[The regulars on Phil's dates] were all expecting this
>to be his greatest hit yet. He was a great producer, but
>kept in that "wall of sound" mode maybe too long and
>eventually styles did change.
This sounds more realistic. I think the pro musicians and
singers Phil used, as well as his contemporaries on both
sides of the Atlantic, would have recognized the qualities
of the record even if they believed it was over the top.
Besides, this record is not all that far away sonically
from Is This What I Get For Lovin' You or Born To Be
Together. I am having trouble believing the sessions for
RDMH were so radically different from other Spector dates
around the same time.
>"RDMH could have been the greatest record ever made and
>it still wouldn't have mattered. The Phil Spector era was
>officially over...."
All Things Must Pass, Darlene.
Jamie
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Re: River Deep
Received: 04/25/00 1:32 am
From: Carol Kaye
To: Spectropop!
On River Deep, I was speaking about how the studio
musicians felt (and talked) about it. Yes, it was crowded
in there, but most of Phil's later dates were. And I was
happy to see Darlene win her lawsuit, she and all the
singers, but espec. Darlene, worked very hard.
Carol Kaye
http://www.carolkaye.com/
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: rock free radio
Received: 04/25/00 1:33 am
From: Nat Kone
To: Spectropop!
At 12:00 AM 4/24/00 +0900, radiopro wrote:
>
>My first job in radio was working part time in the record
>library at a Middle of The Road station in Winnipeg,
>Manitoba Canada that only a few years earlier had "banned"
>Rock and Roll. It was 1963.
That must be CJOB.
I'm not from Winnipeg myself but I have some close friends
from there and they often talk about CJOB, a station that
was apparently inescapable when they grew up. It seems it
had a hugely disproportionate hold on the city. And as
much as my friends all hated the station, it did end up
influencing their tastes. The station that wouldn't play
rock but might play someone's version of rock. Not the
Doors "Light my fire" of course but maybe the Enoch Light
Singers version. The friends I refer to are all filmmakers
and have become famous for their warped view of the world.
And they all credit CJOB to one degree or another for
helping them - or forcing them to - see the world
differently.
Nat
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Dennis Wilson Biography OUT NOW!
Received: 04/25/00 1:33 am
From: Steve Stanley
To: Spectropop!
Hi Spectropoppers,
I just wanted to let everyone know that I just finished
reading the new Dennis Wilson biography, "The Real Beach
Boy." It is truly a fascinating read and a must-have for
all BB fanatics because it contains many new revelations
about Dennis' misunderstood life and work as well as tons
of photos, most of which I've never seen before.
Jon Stebbins (who actually knew Dennis) wrote the book and
put on a bitchin' release party last week in Santa Monica
at Chez Jay, Dennis' favorite bar. It was a gas to see
Marilyn Wilson, David Marks, Steve Kalinich, various
family members and friends rubbing elbows at a Dennis
Wilson love-fest. The author informs me that the sales
have been incredible- the first 10,000 units are already
claimed! Apparently, Amazon still has some available at a
very cool discount (only $13.49, which is 20% off the
regular price of $16.99).
Many Tower Records and other conventional retail locations
have the book also. Check yer local listings...
Steve Stanley
P.S: I don't benefit from the sales of this book at all. I
just wanted the Spectropop subscribers to know it was
available because it truly deserves attention. If anyone
has any questions, email me off the list.
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Do it now
Received: 04/25/00 1:33 am
From: DJ JimmyB
To: Spectropop!
>To this day, I have boxes upon boxes of 45s from the 1963-
>69 era. One day I must find the time to catalogue them all.
You need to start IMMEDIATELY. Then put them on your web
site and give us the URL so we can collectively salivate...
JB
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
Subject: Bonetts
Received: 04/25/00 1:32 am
From: Doc Rock
To: Spectropop!
Anyone ever heard of this group, or the song "Ya Gotta
Take A Chance?"
Doc
--------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]--------------------
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