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There are 10 messages in this issue of Spectropop.
Topics in this Digest Number 261:
1. Re: Stoned
From: Marc Wielage
2. Re: Oldham sold 'em
From: LePageWeb
3. FANITA'S DREAMERS
From: Mick Patrick
4. Re: Who is (was?) Mike Patterson?
From: "Tom Campbell"
5. Medley medley
From: "Peter Richmond"
6. Re: Mojo Collections
From: Frank
7. Re: STRANGER IN PARADISE
From: Paul Underwood
8. Re: STRANGER IN PARADISE
From: LePageWeb
9. Carol Kaye/Brian Wilson
From: John Frank
10. Re: name-postings
From: Carol Kaye
________________________________________________________________________
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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:35:15 -0700
From: Marc Wielage
Subject: Re: Stoned
Phil Chapman commented on the SpectroPop group:
> I kid you not, Jamie! I got this straight from the
> horses' mouth, so to speak, when I was making tea....er,
> assistant engineer, on a Stones session. It was also
> revealed that the guitar riff on "Satisfaction" was
> 'influenced' by the opening brass figure of "Nowhere To
> Run" . However,
> all parties at the time were under the influence of much
> more than just girlgroup classics:-)
>-----------------------------------------------<
Yeah, it's very possible. The various Stones reference
books say that "Satisfaction" was recorded on May 10-11,
1965 at Chess Studios in Chicago, and completed during
May 12-13, 1965 at RCA Studios in Hollywood. It got
rush-released and hit the U.S. charts less than a month
later.
Assuming that's true, "Nowhere to Run" debuted on the
charts in mid-February, so it's extremely possible that
Keith Richards' guitar riff was influenced by this Motown
classic.
--MFW
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-= Marc Wielage | "The computerized authority =-
-= MusicTrax, LLC | on rock, pop, & soul." =-
-= Chatsworth, CA | =-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:02:43 +0900
From: LePageWeb
Subject: Re: Oldham sold 'em
Hi Joseph,
Thanks for your post.
On Tue, 09 Oct 2001 08:37:24 -0600
"Joseph Scott" wrote:
> before around "Satisfaction," before around the time the
> Stones started working with people such as Hassinger,
> their records don't sound well produced imo, and don't
> have a consistent sound.
Oldham didn't have the luxury of attending the
Leiber/Stoller school of record production, that's for
sure. Oldham had only records to learn from, and who did
he emulate? Brian, Nitzsche and Spector! Love him for
that! And, hey - Not Fade Away rocks. Whether it was
actually Hassinger, Nitzsche, Spector, Pitney or even
Phil Sloan, the Andrew Loog Oldham-produced Stones sides
are the ones I love.
> In contrast, Jimmy Miller
> brought a particular creative producer's vision to the
> Stones' sound (a vision that you can hear clearly on
> Miller's Traffic stuff...).
Absolutely. Miller's work with Traffic is especially
compelling. I still prefer Aftermath and Between the
Buttons over Exile on Main Street though.
> ...thank Miller for for getting the Stones'
> recordings back on track (right when they really
> could have lost the public's interest), resulting in
> their achieving acceptance as an institution...
That's probably true. Just when the Beatles broke up the
Stones started revamping the plan to become the greatest
rock and roll band in the world. By then they didn't
need Oldham. And boy I know what you mean by saying
"institution"! I've seen the Stones on their last two
tours. Lights and fireworks and big screen TVs. Pretty
amazing stuff!
> Anyhow, the point I was trying to make in the previous
> post is just that an Oldham "production" credit of the
> "Paint It Black" era reflects the standing arrangement
> he had with the Stones and doesn't necessarily at all
> preclude production-type involvement by a friendly
> talented guest such as Sloan.
To tell you the truth, this is in fact the whole point.
Because it asks the question - What the heck is a record
producer? And Oldham was among the best, perhaps BECAUSE
he got Hassinger and Nitzsche and Pitney involved to
help him. And as far as I know, PF Sloan did see a sitar
in the corner of the studio and suggest putting it on
Paint it Black. I just found his quote really funny,
that's all. In fact, there's a whole lot of funny stuff
in that interview (unless your name is Steve Barri). You
can check it out at:
http://www.hermanshermits.com/japaninterview.htm
Jamie
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:12:09 +0100 (BST)
From: Mick Patrick
Subject: FANITA'S DREAMERS
Greetings,
Peter Lerner enquired:
> ...Are (the RPM, Flair & Fip label Dreamers) the same
> group who did a nice > version of Jackie DeShannon and
> Sharon Sheeley's much covered "Daydreamin' > of you",
> coupled with "The Promise", on Fairmount 612?
No, Pete, they are not.
BTW, thanks to Patrick Phelan and John Clemente my search
for Dreamers label scans is over. Thanks, chaps. I knew
Spectropop was the best place to ask.
MICK PATRICK
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:17:01 -0000
From: "Tom Campbell"
Subject: Re: Who is (was?) Mike Patterson?
> On most of the Bill Medley songs he used something called
> The Mike Patterson Band which may have not been the same
> musicians as Spector or was that a made up name.
>
> Who was (is?) Mike Patterson.
Mike Patterson was the Musical Director on the road for
the Righteous Brothers. He is a piano player from Orange
County who had a band called the Rhythm Rockers which
alternated weekend nights with Dick Dale and the Del
Tones at the Rendevous in Balboa until it burned down
around 1963 or '64. Mike put together a good road band
for the Righteous Brothers -- himself on piano with Art
Munson, guitar; Drew Johnson, drums; Woody Woodrich,
bass; Bill Baker, saxophone; Dick Shearer, trombone; Bob
Faust, Bill King, and Sanford Skinner, trumpet. Woody
Woodrich left in 1965 and I replaced him on bass. I left
in 1966 and Bill Parry replaced me. Bill played on the
live album. Bill Baker and Dick Shearer were good
arrangers. Woody Woodrich was also a trumpet player, and
he was a good arranger also. All three of them
contributed arrangements to the road book.
Bill Medley used the road band on some of the album cuts,
and it was scattered in among the heavyweight studio
musicians on at least one Spector session on God Bless
the child, Halelujia I Love Her So and one other I can't
recall, on a session done around October, 1965.
Mike was a good piano player and a very nice fellow,
enjoyable to work with. I saw him about 10 years ago,
still playing, still sounding good.
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:44:17 +0100
From: "Peter Richmond"
Subject: Medley medley
"Jamie" wrote:
>Welcome, Peter! Wonderful to have you here. I had always
>assumed Patterson was a kind of local surf/r&b type of
>road musician. Thanks for confirming.
Thanks Jamie for the welcome, very kind of you.
I will attempt to answer your questions without waffling
on too much.
>1. Why did Spector suddenly give Medley a budget to use
>the "good" musicians and a real string section?
After a worldwide # 1 hit with "Lovin Feelin", why not!
I would assume that it was a natural progression; you
have to remember that when Phil Spector signed the
Righteous Brothers from Moonglow they had been recording
frantic rock n roll type of songs.
The "Lovin Feelin" album was a transition into a
completely new direction for them, more a raw $BAT(Btreet
sound' and definitely away from their early Moonglow
sounds.
The album "Just Once In My Life" epitomises the
Righteous Brothers $BAT(Bound', which they are renowned for,
with classics like "Unchained Melody" "Guess Who" "See
That Girl" "You'll Never Walk Alone" and "The Great
Pretender".
It is worth noting that beginning with the "Just Once In
My Life" album, Bill Medley worked with a new arranger
in Bill Baker. He was to work extensively with Bill
Medley over the next 5 years in records he produced not
only for the Righteous Brothers, himself in his solo
career but also Bill Medley outside productions, which
are well worth seeking out including records by the
Royalties, the Blossoms and the northern soul classics
by Jerry Ganey.
>2. Spector put junk on B sides - Why didn't he use a
>typical Mike Patterson filler track on the B?
Perhaps he regarded "Unchained Melody" as junk, I don't
know!
It was only intended to be a Bobby Hatfield solo on the
album. Logically it would have impossible to predict that
"Unchained Melody" a diminutive sounding track in
comparison could replace "Hung On You" a true Spector
masterpiece of epic grandeur, as the main side.
>3. Spector liked to keep the B-side publishing - Why did
>he use a cover on the B side this time?
You would really have to ask Phil Spector this.
>4. If it's a Medley production, why has the credit never
>been corrected (typically incorrect credits are
>corrected on subsequent pressings/releases)?
As I stated in my previous message, "Just Once In My Life"
omitted Phil Spector from the songwriting credits on
MGM/Verve releases for years after they leased the track
>from Philles. There would be no benefit to MGM/Verve if
they changed the credit, after all a Phil Spector
production would have more appeal to record buyers than a
Bill Medley produced one.
>5. If Medley produced the Phil Spector Productions
>master, why is the Medley-produced Curb soundalike of
>such lesser quality?
Bobby Hatfield was 50 when he re-recorded the song and it
is probably not wise to assume that it is a soundalike of
the original but a completely different version made to
bring the song into the 90's with different production
techniques. The re-recorded version was more in line with
how Hatfield performed the song in shows.
This was also the case when the Righteous Brothers
re-recorded their big hits on Curb Records.
At the time the Righteous Brothers didn't receive a penny
in royalties from the sales following the success of the
original version in the film "Ghost" not until they
reached an agreement with the owners of the song,
Polygram, a while later.
>6. Spector undoubtedly booked the studio and musicians,
>approved the budget, paid the studio and local #47,
>supervised the selection, mastering, pressing and
>release on his own label. That's usually called record
>production. And of course, the master is indisputably a
>Phil Spector Productions master. What did Medley do
>exactly?
Probably the same as Jeff Barry on the Ronettes "I Can
Hear Music" and Jerry Riopelle on Bonnie & The Treasures
"Home Of The Brave".
>7. Finally, from this point forward Bill and Bobby were
>at each other's throats, right? As you wrote in the
>Philately #4 - Xmas '84 article, Spector produced all
>the Hatfield sides and Medley did his own. If this
>indeed was a Medley production - why Hatfield on lead?
I have really no idea how you arrived at the conclusion
that the Righteous Brothers were at each other's throats.
I think perhaps you have confused the "Just Once In My
Life" album where Medley produced all the tracks except
the title track including both his and Hatfield's solo
efforts, with the "Back To Back" album.
On the "Back To Back" album, Phil Spector produced 3
Bobby Hatfield solo tracks that were issued on singles
but there were also 2 other Bobby Hatfield tracks not
produced by Spector on the album.
>From my understanding, the arrangement between Spector
and Medley regarding production duties was that Spector
would handle the singles and Medley would produce the
albums. As "Unchained Melody" was only intended as a
Bobby Hatfield solo album track, this would be in line
with this agreement.
By the time of "Back To Back", the Righteous Brothers had
of course parted company with Philles Records with much
bitterness on both sides, by breaking their contract.
I am not certain exactly when the non-Spector produced
tracks on "Back To Back" were actually recorded. The "Hot
Tamales" solo by Bobby Hatfield had been released on
Moonglow 220 as by Bobby Hatfield but the other solo,
"She Mine All Mine" doesn't sound as though it was a
Moonglow track, it doesn't really fit into to any of
styles that the Righteous Brothers had at this point.
The Mike Patterson Band instrumental track "Late Late
Night" was possibly included because on the Righteous
Brothers "Soul & Inspiration" album released on Verve
5001, prior to "Back To Back", included a track by the
Righteous Brothers Band (inc Mike Patterson) "Rat Race"
(the northern soul classic).
Hope this is of some help and interest.
Peter.
Righteous Brothers Discography
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 01 08:31:32 +0200
From: Frank
Subject: Re: Mojo Collections
>In the magazine it gives details of where to contact
>for subscriptions and back issues - I assume you
>should try there:
>
>UK Subscription hotline 01858 438 806
>Outside the UK (+44)1858 438 806
Thanks a lot. I'll try these numbers.
Frank
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:39:41 +0200
From: Paul Underwood
Subject: Re: STRANGER IN PARADISE
Mick Patrick wrote:
> 3. Gogi Grant released a version of the song in c.1969:
> Harry Nilsson got the composer credit.
Published by Rock music, as in 1972 with the Supremes'
version produced by Jim Webb.
> 4. The Ronettes' version was eventually released in 1976;
> the songwriters credited were Harry Nilsson and Phil
> Spector.
Published by Mother Bertha or Carlin, depending on the label.
>
> 5. In 1977 Bette Midler released a version of "Paradise":
> Harry Nilsson, Perry Botkin & Gil Garfield were the
> songwriters listed on the label.
Who had the publishing by then?
>
> 6. The Ronettes' version is included on Phil Spector's
> "Back To Mono" Box Set in 1991: the songwriters credited
> were Harry Nilsson, Gil Garfield, Perry Botkin & Phil
> Spector.
>
Mother Bertha and Beechwood Music...
The Xmas 84 Philately had an extract from a Goldmine
article in which Harry Nilsson said that he collaborated
with Spector on the song. But how did Botkin and Garfield
get involved? There must have been a lawsuit or two along
the line. At the risk of sounding like a heretic, though,
I can't say I rate Paradise that highly. The song doesn't
really break new ground, it's too much like a rerun of
Walking in the Rain, written to a formula.
Paul
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:17:07 +0900
From: LePageWeb
Subject: Re: STRANGER IN PARADISE
Phil Chapman wrote:
> ...I still support the contentious theory that the
> release of the truly magnificent "Paradise" was withheld
> because of a dispute with Harry Nilsson over writing
> credits/split.
Maybe an argument over the actual splits, but Nilsson
apparently did not write the song by himself, of that we
are certain, right?
Those who have been checking out Peter Richmond's
Philately article need only turn to page 4 for Nilsson's
comments reprinted from Goldmine regarding this very
subject, prefaced by comments from (I assume) one Mick
Patrick which read, in part "..Harry Nilsson...confirmed once
and for all that the First Tycoon of King did merit his
co-composer credit on 'Paradise'".
In fact, the song existed in a working form BEFORE
Nilsson was invited to become involved.
Mick wrote in Spectropop (abridged)
> I'll be careful exactly what I say here. I know that
> Phil Spector does not take kindly to any accusations
> that he stole songwriter credits.
If you are talking about the claims Ribowsky made in He's
a Rebel to that effect, those were debunked by the
co-writers themselves, were they not? I'd love to get
into that subject at some point. Generally, I think the
belief that Spector ripped off songwriting credits is
overblown. But I digress. Let us stick with Paradise for
this particular thread...
> 2. The Shangri-Las version - Nilsson.
> 4. Ronettes' version - Nilsson/Spector.
> 5. Bette Midler version Nilsson/Botkin/Garfield/Spector.
> 6. Ronettes' Box Set version - Nilsson/Botkin/Garfield/Spector
> 7. BMI database - Nilsson/Botkin/Garfield/Spector
> 'who wrote "Paradise"?'.
This question bothered me for a long time too. Nilsson
was a new kid in town, but he WAS already under contract
to Beechwood at the time.
Getting back to that reprinted Goldmine article, Nilsson
is quoted as saying "I went over to [Spector's]
house...He had this song called, I think,' Stand Me' and
we started working on it. He kept changing it, trying to
make it better. 'I want something more Hawaiian,
Rainbows, Paradise!!' Then there were phone calls
changing words - five people making phone calls 'cause
they had to check with some other people...."
Those who have heard the pre-Paradise working demo
version of "Stand By Him" can attest to the fact that a
heckuva lot more work went into the writing before it
became the song we all know and love as Paradise. But it
sounds to me like the "five people making phone calls"
suggests Botkin and Garfield were already involved
before Nilsson came into the picture.
In any event I believe the BMI listing is the right one.
If so, the question is, why did the earlier credits list
Nilsson or Nilsson/Spector only?
By the way, if memory serves, the other three writers'
interests in the song are all published by Beechwood Music.
Phil's of course is published by Mother Bertha.
Mick said:
> I have more to say on this subject...
Waiting with baited breath!
Jamie
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 20:29:07 -0700
From: John Frank
Subject: Carol Kaye/Brian Wilson
Just a big thank-you to Carol's impressions and insight
regarding Brian Wilson. It comes at an auspicious time
for me, as I'm in the middle of reading "The Nearest
Faraway Place," to be followed by "Heroes and Villains."
John Frank
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Message: 10
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:17:53 -0700
From: Carol Kaye
Subject: Re: name-postings
> if Phil Spector, Brian Wilson or any of the other music
> makers discussed here subscribe to/read/know about
> Spectropop.
Most of anyone who is of that vip hasn't the time usually,
and even if they did, they don't know how to type well,
if at all. I was a technical typist, and can type
120-125 wpm, that's the only reason why I can do it
too....I have a very active Forum and personally receive
100+ emails a day, actually a snap for me, and I'm
extremely busy. Just so you know....they're very busy
people, no-one just lays around.
> Curb was not known for his generosity as far as record
> production is concerned and the difference in sound and
> result could partly be attributed to the fact that these
> Curb sessions were just
Mike Curb heavily relied always on studio musicians to
come up with arranging ideas, etc. I worked for him when
he was barely out of his teens (or maybe he was 19) and
just worked for him again here in Hollywood....he
had/has a healthy respect for studio musicians, we
helped him get a ton of hits. It was nice to see him
again, he's aged well, lives and produces in Nashville
as a rule.
Carol Kaye
http://www.carolkaye.com/
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