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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Membership confirmation
From: S'pop Team
2. Re: (Why) Brackets
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
3. Re: Dick & Dee Dee / bi tunes / Marsh / more on influence
From: Phil Milstein
4. Brian Wilson's "Water Builds Up"
From: Watson Macblue
5. Compatible Stereo
From: Joe Nelson
6. Beatles influence
From: Alan Zweig
7. Re: Re: Badfinger / Beatles influence / Come and Get it Lead Vocal
From: Mike McKay
8. Dick St. John, dies at 63
From: G Beattie
9. Re: Troggs
From: Mike McKay
10. Re: Macarthur Park
From: Art Longmire
11. Re: stalker rock / Macarthur Park
From: Phil Milstein
12. re: Macarthur Park as No.1 Worst Song
From: John Lang
13. It must be love!
From: Martin Roberts
14. Re: Brian wilsons last great song
From: Richard Hattersly
15. worst 45 pressing
From: steveo
16. Re: Happy Birthday, Julie
From: Stephanie
17. Pete Kelly's Blues
From: TD
18. Re: Macarthur Park
From: Orion
19. Re: (Why) Brackets
From: Andy
20. "Long Haired Lover from Liverpool"
From: Andrew Jones
21. Re: Avantis
From: Dan Hughes
22. Re: Dick St. John Photo
From: Clark Besch
23. Sloan & Barri
From: Dan Hughes
24. Re: Badfinger / Beatles influence
From: Peter Kearns
25. Re: Grass Roots
From: Dan Hughes
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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 09:33:59 -0000
From: S'pop Team
Subject: Membership confirmation
As part of our ceaseless endeavour to keep Spectropop
free of junkmail and anonymous postings, each member will
shortly receive this confirmation notice via the email
address that we hold on record. There is NO NEED TO REPLY.
Those members whose notice is returned as 'undeliverable'
will have their posting privileges suspended until a
valid reply email address is supplied.
S'pop Team
-------------------[ archived by Spectropop ]-------------------
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:09:36 EST
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
Subject: Re: (Why) Brackets
My fave... Da Doo Ron Ron (When He Walked Me Home)
In those Spector sessions, he can clearly be heard noting a
take on "When He Walked Me Home", leading me to wonder if
that was the song's original title.
Jimmy
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 11:04:19 +0000
From: Phil Milstein
Subject: Re: Dick & Dee Dee / bi tunes / Marsh / more on influence
Bob Celli wrote:
> I brought Dick in the house and showed him
> a scopitone that he and Dee Dee appeared in. He told me that he had
> never seen it and asked for a copy of it which I gladly made.
"Where Have All The Good Times Gone" -- my all-time favorite Scopitone!
Man, what I wouldn't have given for the opportunity to sit and watch
that with Dick himself, and to ask him a question or two about its
making. Talk about "politically incorrect" -- at one point in this
amusement park clip, Dick picks up a shooting gallery rifle and fires
away at a live girl frugging in a line with the tin duckies. If that
girl, by the way, was not Melody Patterson, aka "Calamity Jane" of F
Troop fame, it was her identical twin.
JD Doyle wrote:
> The reason I want it is I'm doing research for a radio show. I
> produce a monthly show out of Houston called Queer Music Heritage. I
> think my February show will be on bisexuality in music...not bisexual
> artists, but songs actually lyrically about that.
I think The Sweet's "AC/DC" fits the bill.
Mike McKay wrote:
> This only reinforces my belief that Marsh must have been a real
> geek growing up. Given what Mary Weiss did (and still does) to me
> both vocally and, er, "hormonally" -- well, I damn sure knew which
> one she was!
Is this where the line for the Marsh-bashing begins? Bear with me, I'm
having trouble coming up with the word that best describes the
journalistic ethics of a guy who's written three (and counting) bios of
an artist (Bruce Stringbean) whose publicist is his (Marsh's) wife? Oh,
now I remember it: "non-existent".
Peter Kearns wrote:
> Absolutely! Fledgling songwriters/producers often spend
> years overtly going through the mill of taking direct
> influence from a number of things. Once you can get past
> that and your influences are assimilated subconsciously
> without you even having to think about it, is when you've
> really hit on something, especially if what you end up with
> is unique.
Good point. I think this extends to nearly every artist -- the worthy
ones, at least -- in every artform. Patterning oneself after a chosen
master is a form of apprenticeship, and a necessary rite of passage for
coming to discover one's own voice.
--Phil M.
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Message: 4
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 10:25:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Watson Macblue
Subject: Brian Wilson's "Water Builds Up"
Paul Bryant writes:
> So the real answer is "Water Builds Up" which is absolutely wonderful
> - it's just a pop song, not a masterpiece like God only Knows or
> Cabinessence, but it's just great - and alas yet to be officially
> released as it's on Sweet Insanity & therefore dates to around 1992
> I think.
In a sense, it *has* been officially released. Brian cannibalised the
verse to form the verse of Let's Go To Heaven In My Car, originally recorded
during the sessions he did with Gary Usher - a time horrifyingly recorded
in Usher's diaries and published as The Wilson Project. The song was
subsequently re-recorded and issued as a single in 1987 when it was used
as part of the soundtrack of Police Academy 4. Let's Go To Heaven was
originally two completely different songs: it was Usher's idea to split
them in half and weld them together.
Watson
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:25:28 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Compatible Stereo
Paul Urbahns wrote:
> For those who missed our earlier discussions a Compatible mastered
> album has the bass (frequencies below 500 cycles) in mono.
> Therefore they can be tracked by a mono needle which was not as
> sharp (had a bigger needle) than stereo needles. I have some
> Compatible stereo Atlantic 45s that were made from Mono tapes so
> they would track better on stereo turntables.
Okay, so what's a CSG Processed Mono Master (a-la the "Suite
Judy Blue Eyes" 45)?
>From what I've been told, the Haeco CSG system threw the right channel
ninety degrees out of phase: this resulted in a thirty percent
reduction in the sound pressure from the centered elements in the mix
(which were coming from two sources electronically, thus making them
more prominent in a mono dubdown). Atlantic put out a few mono singles
which used the CSG system to dub the stereo master down to mono - a
handy tool as eight and sixteen track recording made separate mono and
stereo remixes more difficult to make.
Joe Nelson
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:54:34 -0500
From: Alan Zweig
Subject: Beatles influence
Mike McKay:
>Well, as Paul McCartney instructed Badfinger to virtually duplicate
>his demo of "Come and Get It" down to the smallest detail (assuring
>them that it would become a hit if they listened -- they did and it
>did), I think you'd have to stretch to say it's not Beatles-sounding.
>Believe me, I love Badfinger, and wouldn't think of taking away from
>their accomplishments by labelling them as unduly influenced by The
>Beatles. The influence, I think, was unavoidable --
Yes it was. By definition, they were influenced by The Beatles. And some
of their best songs sort of sounded like The Beatles. Personally I prefer
their Beatle influenced songs to the actual Beatle songs that may have
influenced them. But that could be because of the overexposure of the
Beatles songs. I often wonder if I would love the Beatles more if I'd
discovered them myself rather than having them forced down my throat as a
kid.
I think it was last week, someone on this list said something to the effect
that "The Beatles and The Beach Boys created the template for pop music and
no one has taken it further since". Just on principle, I can't agree with
an idea like that.
I wonder if anyone here agrees with me that pop music as we know it,
probably would have developed much the same way it has, even if there'd
been no Beatles or Beach Boys. It's obviously very very hypothetical and
impossible to really imagine. But one of the reasons I say this is because
I've heard SOOO much music in the last few years that I'd never even heard
of back in the sixties and the picture has gotten much more complex.
It makes much more sense to me that there were influences "in the air" and
that the Beatles and Beach Boys - among others like The Byrds, Bacharach,
Dylan, (dare I say it) Lou Reed - just did a better job of reflecting those
influences than other groups. So maybe they were the best examples of a
certain sound. But that sound would have been developed even if they hadn't
created the music they did.
Maybe this is a bit too philosophical for a subject like this. But for me
it's just like the "Great Man Theory" of history. I don't think it works
that way.
Blues would have developed without Robert Johnson. Bebop would have
developed without Charlie Parker (though that's the hardest one for me to
say) and I think pop music as we know it would have developed without the
two or three bands that did it best. It was a movement.
Would Chad and Jeremy and the Hollies and The Association and The Lovin
Spoonful and The Critters and The Cyrkle and The Match, all have formed
skiffle bands or Kingston Trio tribute acts if the Beatles and the Beach
Boys hadn't come along?
I'd be interested to hear from the people who were around making music at
the time. What might pop music have sounded like without the Beatles or
Beach Boys?
AZ
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:34:31 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Re: Badfinger / Beatles influence / Come and Get it Lead Vocal
Me:
> And I can't be the only one who hears similarities in Pete Ham's
> and Paul's voice (the irony was that it was Joey Moelland who
> looked so much like Paul!).
Mark Frumento wrote:
> You may be alone in this as Tom Evans sang the lead on "Come and Get
> It." Tom definitely sounded a bit like McCartney as evidenced on his
> other vocals like "Maybe Tomorrow."
> Aside from this though Pete Ham sounds nothing like McCarntey to me.
> His voice is way too low.
Yes, I'm aware it's Tom and not Pete singing lead on "Come and Get It".
But just the opposite of how it strikes you, I find his voice TOO high
and shrill to sound much like Paul's.
Not sure what you mean by Pete's voice being "way too low" to sound
like McCartney's. I'd have to do some A/B-ing, but I think you could
find plenty of instances of them singing in about the same range. It's
hard to pinpoint exactly where the similarities come from, but in phrases like "I will always be with you" from "No Matter What" or "Looking out
from my lonely gloom" in "Day After Day" I definitely hear Paul. Don't
know exactly if it's the phrasing or inflection or what.
Mike
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 00:22:06 -0000
From: G Beattie
Subject: Dick St. John, dies at 63
OBITUARIES December 30, 2003
Dick St. John, 63; Singer in Duo Dick & Dee Dee
>From Associated Press
Dick St. John, half of the Dick & Dee Dee duo, whose 1961 hit "The
Mountain's High" made No. 2 on the Billboard pop singles chart, has
died. He was 63.
St. John died Saturday morning at UCLA Medical Center, according to
Judith Capps, a family friend.
Capps said St. John died from injuries he sustained after falling
from a ladder outside his Pacific Palisades home on Friday.
St. John, born Richard Gosting in Santa Monica, began performing
with his friend Mary Sperling in junior high. With St. John as the
chief songwriter, the two soon attracted the attention of Liberty
Records in Los Angeles, then one of the hottest independent record
labels in the country.
St. John and Sperling, who was quickly renamed "Dee Dee" by the
label, joined an eclectic roster that ranged from early rock 'n'
roll to country music and included such stars as Willie Nelson, June
Carter, Bobby Vee, Johnny Burnette, The Rivingtons and Jan and Dean.
Dick & Dee Dee reflected the mixture of influences that
characterized the early '60s American pop music scene, combining
elements of doo-wop, soul and R&B in their sound. They toured with
the Beach Boys and Rolling Stones.
The group's biggest hit was "The Mountain's High," but they also
cracked the Top 25 pop singles chart in 1963 with "Young and In
Love" and 1965's "Thou Shalt Not Steal." Dick & Dee Dee were semi-
regulars on such musical shows as "Shindig" and "American
Bandstand."
St. John wrote songs that were recorded by Lesley Gore, Jan and Dean
and Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons; he also contributed music to
many television shows.
St. John continued to record and perform regularly until his death.
He is survived by his wife, Sandy, who joined him as the "new" Dee
Dee in his touring act when Sperling retired in the early 1970s.
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:40:55 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Troggs
Artie Wayne wrote:
> ......so 15 minutes before they were due to arrive, I picked up my
> guitar and wrote "Somewhere my Girl is Waiting". Larry loved it
> and recorded it a few weeks later. Although it was banned in the
> UK [for being too suggestive] and never released in the U.S. it
> gave me an open door to Larry from then on.
Phil Milstein:
> Fantastic song! Although, with all due respect (and quite jokingly),
> it seems it was harder to get a cut on The Troggs that WASN'T banned
> than one that was!
This seems like an opportune time, with all the concurrent talk about
"creepy" songs, to put in a plug for a big Troggs favorite of mine,
"Cousin Jane". Maybe "creepy" is too strong a word, but it's quite an
affecting little tune -- with Reg's hushed vocal and the celestial backing. There's certainly no doubt at all what he has in mind now that Cousin Jane has "come to stay again"!
I don't know of another song with quite the "feel" of this one, and it
always amazed me that it fell out of the same head that gave us the raw
and primal "I Can't Control Myself" and "With a Girl Like You."
Mike
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:00:06 -0000
From: Art Longmire
Subject: Re: Macarthur Park
Paul Bryant wrote:
> Dear Poppers, I found a "Top 100 Worst Songs Ever" list on some
> web page or other, and I confess I was surprised to see that
> beating all the usual dreck like "Agadoo" or "Long haired Lover
> from Liverpool" to the No 1 position was, yes, Jimmy Webb's 7
> minute epic from 1968, as sung by Richard Harris.
> As for me, it's actually one of my all time favourite 60s records,
> and I was always disappointed that Jimmy Webb's later stuff never
> came anywhere near it. But now I'm wondering - whaat do
> Spectropoppers think of this record? Am I the only person who
> still plays it for pleasure? Does it now make people cringe and
> run away?
> "Between the parted pages and were pressed
> In love's hot, fevered iron
> Like a striped pair of pants"
Paul, I'm glad you brought this up! I feel just like you do, I
LOVE "MacArthur Park" by Richard Harris. In fact, I also like some
of the other Webb songs done by Harris that aren't mentioned all
that frequently, like "The Yard Went On Forever".
I've seen "MacArthur Park" maligned on numerous occasions.
Dave Barry, the humor columnist, raked it over the coals
in a column a while back.
This song to me is a quintessential "art-pop" song of the late
'60s and I always listen to it in this context, as a song from
a great period of experimentation in popular music. My theory is
that many listeners, especially younger ones, just hear it as a
bombastic piece of drivel with pretentious lyrics.
Art Longmire
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 13:42:02 +0000
From: Phil Milstein
Subject: Re: stalker rock / Macarthur Park
Bob Hanes wrote:
> The #1 candidate for inclusion in this genre would have to be Brian
> Wilson's -(unrelease) Lazy Lizzie! What an incredibly creepy song!
> But, sorta funny in that naive BW sort of way. Have y'all heard it?
Reminds me to ask if anyone knows of a Wayne Newton song about a
Peeping Tom, and if so what it's called.
Paul Bryant wrote:
> As for me, it's actually one of my all time favourite 60s records,
> and I was always disappointed that Jimmy Webb's later stuff never
> came anywhere near it. But now I'm wondering - whaat do
> Spectropoppers think of this record? Am I the only person who
> still plays it for pleasure?
I love it myself, in fact adore all known versions (Donna Summer;
several by Waylon Jennings, etc.). It's overwrought as hell, but
had it been more restrained it wouldn't have been half as much fun
to listen to. Anyone remember John Candy's hilarious portrayal, on
an episode of SCTV, of Richard Harris trapped in MacArthur Park Hades,
caught up in an endless loop of it on the "Mel's Rock Pile" teen dance
program?
--Phil M.
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 14:13:12 -0800
From: John Lang
Subject: re: Macarthur Park as No.1 Worst Song
Yes, absolutely! Macarthur Park has always been and probably
always will be #1 on my list of all-time worst songs, closely
followed by Send In The Clowns.
The metaphoric line about the 'sweet green icing flowing down'
and the other gastronomic reference about 'never have that
recipe again' absolutely make me cringe.
John Lang
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:14:16 -0000
From: Martin Roberts
Subject: It must be love!
Congratulations to all involved in David A. Young's,
"Please Phil Spector". A quite amazing piece of scholarly
endeavour. Tracking down Jack Nitzsche's record credits is
hard enough, very few guides list the arranger credit but
the only way to find most records that either quote a lyric
or mention Mr Spector is to hear them.
A bit like two of the records interestingly reviewed/noted
on the feature, Mark Wirtz's, "Sha La La La Lee" and Mike
Rashkow's "Please Phil Spector", a fine/fan tribute to a
hugely gifted producer. Read the feature, dust down those
old Philles 45s and re-listen to what all the fuss is about.
Martin
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Message: 14
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:04:55 +0000
From: Richard Hattersly
Subject: Re: Brian wilsons last great song
I think "This Isn't Love " is a really impresive song.
I'd like to hear a studio version of it.
So far I have only heard it on The Live at The Roxy CD.
Richard
http://www.wiz.to/richardsnow
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 16:11:06 -0800 (PST)
From: steveo
Subject: worst 45 pressing
A 45 that gets my vote for the worst pressing
is the Elektra 45 compatible mono/stereo 1967
release of the Doors "Light My Fire". It sounded
good for the first 25 plays or so, but wore out
qickly, and the grooves were so close together
it started to eat up the needle pretty quickly
also becoming white as snow. Most of these were
cheap styrene plastic.
Steveo
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Message: 16
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:12:16 -0000
From: Stephanie
Subject: Re: Happy Birthday, Julie
Country Paul wrote:
> Relating to recent discussions, today (January 2nd) is
> Julius Larosa's birthday (born 1930).
I love this man and IM SO upset with what Arthur Godfrey
did to him he could have been the next Frank Sinatra he
has a wonderful voice.
Stephanie
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Message: 17
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 19:24:03 -0500
From: TD
Subject: Pete Kelly's Blues
In Country Paul's message:
>..Peggy Lee's name came up, and I was wondering if
> "Sing A Rainbow", from the original Disney movie
> "Lady & The Tramp", originally on a Decca 45, was
> available anywhere on a CD?
> ..Peggy Lee sang "Sing a Rainbow" in the Warner Brothers
> movie "Pete Kellys' Blues" ( Jack Webb's homage to Jazz
> - 1955). The movie also features Ella Fitzgerald singing
> the theme with the notable lyric:
> You hide yourself behind a prayer
> The blues will come and find you there
> That's why I'm stuck with
> Fresh-out-of luck with
> The Blues ...
In the Disney's "Lady & The Tramp", Peggy Lee sings, "He's a Tramp".
In Warner's "The Girl Can't Help It", Edmund O'Brian's role as Marty
'Fats' Murdock, the mobster who wants his girl friend (Jayne Mansfield)
to be a singing star is a burlesque of the gangster role O'Brian played
in "Pete Kelly's Blues"; the comical Fats Murdock is a parody of Fran
McCarg, the ruthless character who destroyed Peggy Lee in "Pete Kelly's
Blues". On a late night talk show (maybe it was Steve Allen's 'Tonight'?),
I saw Peggy Lee say that she sometimes thought her role as "Rose" in "Pete
Kelley's Blues" hindered her career. She said many people who watched her
playing the part of an alcoholic night club singer supposed that they were
seeing the real Peggy Lee and not a performance.
TD
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Message: 18
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 18:56:46 -0600
From: Orion
Subject: Re: Macarthur Park
Paul Bryant wrote:
> As for me, it's actually one of my all time favourite
> 60s records, and I was always disappointed that Jimmy
> Webb's later stuff never came anywhere near it.
I like this song quite a bit as well as Richard Harris's
rendition of "Didn't We (almost make it)". The title doesn't
have the parenthesis I just thought I would throw them in
since they are a current topic. :)
Peace
Orion
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Message: 19
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 02:08:51 -0000
From: Andy
Subject: Re: (Why) Brackets
Could one of the possiblities be to keep from confusing one
song title from another? for example there are "48" songs
titled "close to you" under ASCAP... the Burt/Hal song
(They Long to Be) Close to You, now I'd know which of these
48 you were requesting. As for the others, well maybe it's
just to "stand out" or could it be, to in fact, be certain
as to the song title???? who knows!!!!
Andy
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Message: 20
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:17:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Andrew Jones
Subject: "Long Haired Lover from Liverpool"
I just saw Paul Bryant's reference to "Long Haired Lover
from Liverpool" and I couldn't resist including this:
Some time ago during a trip to a local thrift store, I
discovered a promo 45 of the original version of "LHLFL",
by its writer, Christopher Kingsley. If you want to hear
that song done RIGHT, seek out Kingsley's version. (In that
same trip, I also landed a promo single of "Semi-Detached
Suburban Mr. Jones" by Herbie's People. That was a good
day for me.)
Totally Detached Rural Mr. ACJ
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Message: 21
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:28:38 -0600
From: Dan Hughes
Subject: Re: Avantis
Mikey sez,
> The "Instrumental" Avantis and the "Keep on Dancing"
> Avantis were different groups.
And a Minneapolis group, Gregory Dee & the Avantis, cut
several sides in the mid-60s. Wonder if "Avantis" was one
of those names that was used by garage bands everywhere.
And what IS an Avanti?
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Message: 22
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 05:53:51 -0000
From: Clark Besch
Subject: Re: Dick St. John Photo
I was just doing some research and going thru some
60s TV guides for info. Seemed odd timing when I saw
"Where the Action Is' had Dick & Dee Dee performing
"Thou Shalt Not Steal" on the show 37 years ago on
January 3, 1966 episode. Memories of better times.....
Clark
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Message: 23
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 23:32:07 -0600
From: Dan Hughes
Subject: Sloan & Barri
Austin, had P.F. Sloan already split with Steve Barri by
the time you got to Dunhill? Any idea why they broke up?
---Dan
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Message: 24
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 06:04:05 -0000
From: Peter Kearns
Subject: Re: Badfinger / Beatles influence
Eddy wrote:
> Mike, Although you're absolutely correct in your statement,
> I think you're underestimating the influence of "just being
> on Apple" was at the time. I remember buying several records
> just because they were on Apple.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at.
Peter.
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Message: 25
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:11:46 -0600
From: Dan Hughes
Subject: Re: Grass Roots
Glenn, I enjoyed your Grass Roots site and I have a couple
of questions:
1. I saw the Grass Roots on the Lloyd Thaxton show (kind of
a west coast American Bandstand) when they were just starting,
and they performed Ballad of a Thin Man (which they called Mr.
Jones, I believe). I can't remember if they they also did Where
Were You When I Needed You. I don't think they did--I think they
had just released Mr. Jones. Do you have any record of this
appearance, and if Sloan and Barri were a part of that in-person
performance?
2. Sloan's voice is on the first album, but it was replaced for
the Where Were You single? I can't tell any difference, I don't
think. Can you?
Thanks for any clarification here....
---Dan
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