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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Beatles For Sale/"Mr. Tambourine Man"
From: Mike McKay
2. Re: Mixing
From: John Sellards
3. Re: Clingers
From: Patrick Rands
4. Re: Progressive Northern Soul?
From: Scott Charbonneau
5. Re: "In The Rain"
From: C Ponti
6. Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
From: steveo
7. Re: "Unique"? Well ...
From: steveo
8. Re: Clingers
From: Patrick Rands
9. Re: Clingers
From: Patrick Rands
10. Picardy to Musica
From: Clark Besch
11. Re: Progressive northern soul - additional
From: Howard
12. Bill Lavorgna
From: Lapka Larry
13. Re: Bobby Pedrick
From: tatsurou sakaguchi
14. Re: Keep A Knockin'
From: Simon White
15. Re: "In The Rain"
From: Mike Rashkow
16. Re: More Arties
From: John Fox
17. Ron Dante - Welcome!
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
18. Re: Northern Soul cover-ups
From: Ed Salamon
19. Re: "Down Home Girl"
From: Richard Havers
20. Innocence, despair and mistakes
From: Paul Bryant
21. Re: Worst 45 pressings
From: Ron Bowdery
22. Re: Free As a Bird / Beatles mono mixes
From: Mike McKay
23. Re: Alvin Robinson / NY drummers
From: Artie Butler
24. Re: Pet Sounds mix whoopsies - I'm Waiting For The Day
From: C. Ponti
25. Re: Cymbal & Clinger
From: Patrick Rands
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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:59:27 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Beatles For Sale/"Mr. Tambourine Man"
Richard Hattersley wrote:
> I love "I don't wanna Spoil the Party" as well. the intro to
> "What you're Doing" sounds to me like Roger Mcguinn may have
> used this as a template for Mr Tambourine Man's intro. I know
> he says Bach's Joy of mans desiring was an influence, but if
> you play both on a 12 string guitar, the notes are all the same
> just jumbled up.
Actually, "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is quoted in the guitar
solo for Gene Clark's "She Don't Care About Time", the B-side
of "Turn! Turn! Turn!" But having said that, I'm astounded that
I never made the connection between the respective intros of
"What You're Doing" and "Mr. Tambourine Man" until you brought
it up. Seems so obvious now!
Mike
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:30:56 -0000
From: John Sellards
Subject: Re: Mixing
> John Sellards,
> You are right! Mono mixes were carefully mixed by the
> producer, and often the engineer was left to mix the
> stereo. I have been witness to some of the legendary
> Brill personnel, in the studio with them years back
> (on the west coast, ironically), and saw them walk out
> after doing the mono mix, telling the engineer, you do
> the stereo mix!
Actually, I was responding to somebody else who had made the point
about the stereo mixes being done later by engineers - that practice
is pretty well known, probably as a direct result of the story of the
Beatles being around for the mixing of the mono Sgt. Pepper and not
the stereo being told again and again. But it still amazes me how
much more emotionally involving mono mixes usually are even for tunes
you wouldn't expect a mix difference...like "Run To Him" by Bobby
Vee, where the Johnny Mann singers seem to build and build throughout
the record to a great climax at the end that is greatly diminished in
the stereo mix.
John Sellards
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Message: 3
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:06:01 -0000
From: Patrick Rands
Subject: Re: Clingers
Jason wrote:
> The Clingers aka The Clinger Sisters recorded a one-off 45
> (unreleased) with Curt Boettcher and Lee Mallory: "Sing to Me"
> b/w "You Were Near Me".
Hi Jason,
I KNEW there was a Clinger/Curt Boettcher connection, but
could never figure out how I knew that. Glad to see I was
right. Whatever happened to the unreleased Clinger Sisters
versions of "Sing to Me" / "You Were Near Me"? Have copies
survived, does anyone have a copy or has it been reissued?
I'm also a huge Curt Boettcher fan.
There's live video footage of The Clingers performing songs
they never released (like a raunchy Janis Joplin inspired
version of The Beatles Good Day Sunshine), maybe they've
got more unreleased studio recordings as well.
:Patrick
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Message: 4
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:21:59 -0000
From: Scott Charbonneau
Subject: Re: Progressive Northern Soul?
> There are also stories of records actually being destroyed
> to preserve their rarity.
The members of Canned Heat were notorious for doing this also.
When they were on tour some of them, usually Bob "The Bear"
Hite and one or two others, would hit record shops in search
of old blues 78s. They would take the good stuff for themselves
and, just so they were sure to have the only good copy, would
put cracks in whatever remaining stock there was.
Scott
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Message: 5
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 16:35:51 -0000
From: C Ponti
Subject: Re: "In The Rain"
Ron Dante:
> That was a great session ["In The Rain"]. Don't remember
> the studio name but it was in The American Hotel in NYC.
Rashkovsky:
> Had to be Mirasound. No?
> Mirasound it was. Great studio. Terrific live drum sound.
Ron,
Gene Radice,was the engineer,right? Remember his son Mark
had those cool demos and was quite talented? Alot of us felt
he was going to be huge....
C Ponti
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Message: 6
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:05:36 -0800 (PST)
From: steveo
Subject: Re: Brilliant Tracks With One Inept Ingredient
Mike McKay wrote:
> And there's the very last note of the guitar solo
> midway through "Roll Over Beethoven".......
> Luckily, it's over so quickly that it doesn't
> really detract from what I think is perhaps
> Chuck's greatest song and finest moment on record.
Mike,
I think that "No Particular Place To Go" is Chuck's
finest moment.
Stevo
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Message: 7
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:01:04 -0800 (PST)
From: steveo
Subject: Re: "Unique"? Well ...
> the question is whether "a major seventh in the vocal"
> means a single voice making the leap of a major seventh,
> or multiple voices singing a major-seventh chord.
Chris,
I be talking about 2 people on these two notes hanging
on the interval, not just a melodic interval.
Steveo
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Message: 8
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:01:24 -0000
From: Patrick Rands
Subject: Re: Clingers
Glenn wrote:
> I'd like see the Clingers single review on your site but there is
> no link to it from the URL you gave. Can you help?
I posted a link to a site just so you could see the image scan for
their Kim Fowley produced single - I hope it worked here it is again
(page down to see it):
http://www.angelfire.com/d20/reefer/clingers.html
> I recently mentioned the Levine/Brown songwriting team of "Tie A
> Yellow Ribbon" fame in another post - one of their better songs was
> the Rock Flowers' only charting hit, "Number Wonderful", also
> covered by Jay and the Techniques.
I think the Jay and the Techniques song is a different song
altogether from The Rock Flowers/Picketywitch song, isn't it?
:Patrick
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Message: 9
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:08:59 -0000
From: Patrick Rands
Subject: Re: Clingers
JJ wrote:
> Hey, check out item #88 in below record list,
> i.e. RARE & cool looking DUTCH Clingers PS!....
> I'm not the seller, just spotted this new list,
> after reading about the Clingers:
> http://www.windys.nu/rsingak.htm
Hi JJ,
There's a sound sample too - sounds fantastic!
I'd love to know if it really is The Clingers playing on
that single - or if Kim Fowley had session players.
:Patrick
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Message: 10
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 15:45:17 -0000
From: Clark Besch
Subject: Picardy to Musica
Now going on Musica by request: "5:30 Plane" by Picardy.
So good to know that people out there love "Montage" and
"How Sweet it is"! This 45 is very hard to come by, as I've
seen only my copy in all the years looking for it. Released
early summer 1968, shoulda fit in well with Mamas & Papas
crowd. It is somewhat reminiscent of "12:30" oddly enough,
not only with a time in the title, but the chorus much like
"young girls are coming to the canyon" vocals. The false
ending is great too--always love that stuff and cold endings
too. Jimmy Webb wrote "5:30 Plane" and produced it and the
B side: "In the Name of You", which was written by Charles
Merriam. I couldn't see it on my LP, but somewhere I thought
there was a connection between Picardy and Love Generation.
Anyone think so, or remember? Anyway, enjoy!
Clark
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Message: 11
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 08:14:38 -0500
From: Howard
Subject: Re: Progressive northern soul - additional
Phil M:
> #1 it was, and I thank you for your answer. If I understand
> it correctly, "ordinary" Northern soul refers to the older-
> discovered records, and "progressive" to those discovered more
> recently. Is there any particular difference between the records
> themselves, though, other than when they were picked up on by the scene?
Yes, that's basically correct Phil, although due to the changing
tastes of the 'progressive' northern soul scene, a more diverse
blend of tempos have (especially mid tempo & beat ballads) become
more acceptable in the grand scheme of things.
Also, some all nighters have become multi-room affairs where you
can hear 'oldies', new 6T's, R&B and 'modern' soul (modern soul
is another strange tag, as it can incude records dating back to
the 70s!). It's all getting mighty confusing here :-?
cheers..
Howard
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Message: 12
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:29:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Lapka Larry
Subject: Bill Lavorgna
Bill Lavorgna in recent years has moved totally away
from this type of music. He has been the drummer in
Liza Minnelli's backing bands for quite a long time.
During her concerts, she basically refers to him as
"her best friend in the world", and since he has been
with her forever, you have to believe her.
And yes, he is a terrific drummer, even on her material.
Larry Lapka
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Message: 13
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:47:34 -0800 (PST)
From: tatsurou sakaguchi
Subject: Re: Bobby Pedrick
Phil Hall wrote:
> Does anyone know what happened to Bobby Pedrick,
> aka Robert John, who had his first minor hit in
> the late 50s at age 12 and had several bigger
> hits in the late 60s and 70s? His cover of
> "Maybe" sounded a lot like Arlene Smith.
I think Bobby's favorite songs are
Summer Nights
Dining and Dancing
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Message: 14
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:49:49 +0000
From: Simon White
Subject: Re: Keep A Knockin'
Phil Milstein wrote -
> About 2/3rds of the way through Little Richard's most manic
> recording, "Keep A-Knockin'", the speed of the whole recording
> suffers a brief "wow", as if the engineer inadvertently brushed
> his hand against one of the tape reels for a second. Not that
> they usually need it, but I like things like that -- they give
> the song an extra little hook.
"Keep A Knockin'" is actually only about 60 seconds long and
then spliced together. There is another verse, not in the
original, with the line - "I'm drinkin gin and you can't come in"
Simon
Holy Mackerel!
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Message: 15
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:59:24 EST
From: Mike Rashkow
Subject: Re: "In The Rain"
C Ponti writes:
> Gene Radice,was the engineer,right? Remember his son Mark
> had those cool demos and was quite talented? Alot of us felt
> he was going to be huge....
More likely it was Brooks Arthur, but I was among those who
heard Mark Radice and thought he would be GIANT. I think
Gene Radice produced a pretty darn good record, was possibly
Ben E. King, called, "What Is Soul".
Di la,
Rashkovsky
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Message: 16
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:42:18 EST
From: John Fox
Subject: Re: More Arties
> Great to get information about New York session drummers
> of the '60s.
We have Artie Wayne and now Artie Butler. In the spirit of
the above comment from Richard Williams, I'd like to put in
a word for NY's answer to LA's Steve Douglas, namely Artie Kaplan.
I met Artie in 1985. He was leading the pit band in the short-lived
(but fantastic) Broadway show, "Leader of the Pack" starring Ellie
Greenwich and Darlene Love (whom I also met outside the stage door,
but that's another story). Artie stayed in the pit and talked to me
for a long time after the show, and claimed to have played sax many
big hits recorded in NY in the 60s, particularly for Neil Sedaka and
on all of the Carole King-related stuff on the Dimension label. He
was a pleasure to talk to, and maybe one of the other Arties knows
if he's still around today?
John Fox
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:04:48 EST
From: Jimmy Crescitelli
Subject: Ron Dante - Welcome!
Welcome aboard... just want to let you know that "Sugar Sugar"
was THE record in my Brooklyn neighborhood for many, many,
many months... it was the first song I ever danced to...
I was 13 years old for most of that year..... !
Keep up the good work!
Jimmy Crescitelli
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Message: 18
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:55:51 -0000
From: Ed Salamon
Subject: Re: Northern Soul cover-ups
Regarding 'destroying' labels (aka 'cover-ups') on the
Northern Soul scene:
In the 60s, I deejayed dances in Pittsburgh where the djs
likewise sometimes destroyed labels, rather than cover them
up with cut out labels. I have many such trashed records in
my collection. The idea, of course, was that you didn't want
other dance djs to know what you were playing and get your
"exclusive". Record were not usually announced at the dances,
but those djs that had radio shows, often gave their unknown
records different titles and artists, if they announced them
at all. For example, on Mad Mike's radio shows, "Certainly All"
by Eddie Jones on J-B became "Turn Me On"; "Garlic Bread", an
instrumental by Gary and Larry on Goliath, became "The Breather"
and so on.
Ed
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Message: 19
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:47:28 +0000
From: Richard Havers
Subject: Re: "Down Home Girl"
> ...and let's not forget Artie Butler's "Down Home Girl" which
> he co-wrote with Jerry Leiber and cut on Alvin "Shine" Robinson.
> ...and got covered by the Rolling Stones !
The Stones' version was cut on Nov 2 1964 at RCA Studios, Hollywood
with Dave Hassinger. In all 6 Tracks were cut that day: Marvin Gaye's
'Hitch Hike', Solomon Burke's 'Everybody Needs Somebody To Love', Otis
Redding's 'Pain In My Heart', Barbara Lynn Ozen's 'Oh, Baby', Mick &
Keith's 'Heart Of Stone' and 'Down Home Girl', Jack Nitzsche played
keyboards on some tracks including 'Down Home Girl'.
Andrew Oldham (Disc 14.11.64):
"We used the RCA Studios in Hollywood, & the whole set-up was
terrific. We completely insulated ourselves from the outside. The boys
records for 15 hours non-stop, from 11am to 4am, & I spent another 3
hours in the studio overdubbing & editing the masters. England won't
get the first of these releases at least until January. They'll most
likely come out in the States first. This session has produced a new
Stones sound, & certainly brought out the best of Keith, whose guitar
playing was magnificent. The only outsider was Jack Nitzsche, who
played a toy piano, & was able to make it sound like any instrument you
like, & on some tracks, it even sounds like a trombone. He played
straight piano on other tracks".
Keith (Disc 14.11.64):
"The atmosphere & studio, plus the fact that we knew we had good
material, made the session a good one. We didn't think it would work
out at first, as the studio is so gigantic we were terrified to use it.
Then Andrew hit on the idea of putting us in one corner, shutting off
the main lights & just using a spotlight, to make it more cosy. The
control room was also in darkness. A bit mad, but it did the trick. Me
& the boys really let ourselves go. Bill should be mentioned. He really
did a great job on one number, double-tracking on bass & six-string
bass. The more I think about the session, & listen to the finished
tapes, I agree that these are the best we've done so far. I liked
working on all of the tracks, but it was fun recording the one Mick & I
wrote".
Richard
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Message: 20
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 05:55:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul Bryant
Subject: Innocence, despair and mistakes
Hi Poppers
For some very different versions of some Spectropop
favourites, with many many mistakes, offkey singing
and yet with much beauty too, check out the Langley
Schools Music Project
http://www.keyofz.com/keyofz/langley/
pb
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Message: 21
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:49:10 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ron Bowdery
Subject: Re: Worst 45 pressings
Worst 45 Pressings. Ron Bowdery "I'll step down" by Lee Diamond
& the Cherokees, sounded fine in the Studio, when it was released
Lee Diamond had developed a lisp on the "step" of the title. Then
the recording was re-mixed, I think as on some copies the lisp had
disappeared.
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Message: 22
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 09:12:06 EST
From: Mike McKay
Subject: Re: Free As a Bird / Beatles mono mixes
Michael Carpenter wrote:
> Free As A bird by the Threetles brings tears to my eyes. I
> reckon it's some of the best 'Beatles' harmony singing.. a
> wonderful track.
I feel the same way, and yet it's amazing the amount of carping
you heard by hardcore Beatles fans about this and "Real Love." It
just seemed like some were bending over backwards not to like the
Threetles project or find fault with it in some way. Yes, I could
have done without the Jeff Lynne drum sound, but beyond that
they're both very enjoyable, and I certainly agree with you about
the harmonies in the middle section of "Bird." Just remarkable.
> As for mono mixes being the 'real' mixes. I've always been
> surprised in all the re-issueing of old stuff that mono mixes
> aren't more prevalent. I was so glad on the Motown singles box
> sets and Beatles singles and EP box sets to hear the mono
> versions. For trainspotters like us here on S'pop who know the
> stereo mixes were almost always quickly knocked off by house
> engineers, there's something unsatisfying about only having access
> to the stereo versions... like we're only getting part of the
> vision. Especially surprised the Beatles haven't made more use of
> the mono mixes in re-issues, especially as the first real bonofide
> stereo mix wasn't really made until 1969.
Well, I would say 1968 for sure and The White Album, which wasn't
even released in mono in the States. But your larger point is one
I've been on about for years and years. It's criminal that there's
no legitimate mono release of "Revolver" and "Sgt. Pepper" in
particular, as there are great differences in the mixes between the
mono and stereo versions.
I don't think it's too much to ask that the work of THE band of the
20th century be available *in the way the artists intended it to be
heard*. And yet, you have the "stereo at all costs" people bitching
because the first four albums are only available in mono (as opposed
to the God-awful split stereo of the first two...why anyone would
actually want to listen to that is entirely beyond me).
(And by the way, Michael, may I assume from the "au" in your Email
address that you're Michael Carpenter of power pop fame, artist on
one of my very favorite songs of the 1990s "Tonight"? If so, it's
very nice to "meet" you!)
Mike
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Message: 23
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:38:47 EST
From: Artie Butler
Subject: Re: Alvin Robinson / NY drummers
Hi Richard,
No I did not arrange "Fever" by Alvin Robinson. I do not remember.
Sorry.
Artie Butler
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Message: 24
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:24:57 -0000
From: C. Ponti
Subject: Re: Pet Sounds mix whoopsies - I'm Waiting For The Day
Watson Macblue wrote:
> The chat on Here Today and the bad edit in Wouldn't It Be Nice
> are neither the only nor the worst mix horrors on Pet Sounds.
> The one that gets me every time (to the extent of spoiling the
> track for me) is at the end of I'm Waiting For The Day. Listen
> carefully when Brian sings the phrase "when you can love again"
> for the last time. This was obviously punched in directly over
> a previous take; when Brian reaches the end of the second
> syllable of "again", the punch-in ends abruptly, and the tail of
> the earlier take leaps out for a split second. The engineer
> should have wiped at least till the end of the next measure
> before punching out - it's not as though there's something else
> nearby on the same track (surely?) that needed to be preserved.
> An engineer who dropped a stitch that big these days could
> reasonably expect a spell in the Re-Education Camps. It's one
> of the things that gets fixed in the stereo mix (which, let me
> say immediately, I otherwise loathe - the stereo Sloop John
> B and You Still Believe In Me are unlistenable in my book).
How about on "Here Today", where during the instrumental break I
can here Brian call to Chuck Britz, "Chuck??" None of PET SOUNDS
is unlistenable to me, though "Sloop" never seemed to fit with the
rest of the work.
C Ponti
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Message: 25
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:27:24 -0000
From: Patrick Rands
Subject: Re: Cymbal & Clinger
Austin Roberts wrote:
> Here's an interesting item, I think. Johnny Cymbal and Peggy
> Clinger were in love and inseperable (as well as recording as
> Cymbal and Clinger) until not long before Peggy died. Sad day.
Hi Austin,
Very sad indeed, she was an amazing, amazing talent. Hopefully Peggy
and Johnny will enjoy my radio show this friday - it's in both of
their honor.
Cymbal and Clinger had a song called Sunshine Man on a single
released by Judd Hamilton, which also had a song by you and Johnny
called Baltimore. Here are the details:
Sunshine Man (Cymbal / Clinger) / Baltimore (Cymbal / A. Roberts)
Produced by JC and JH / Arranged by Don Hackett
American International Records (AIR) A-1092/A-1093 (Promotional
copy) /Manufactured by Forward Records
Do you remember this single or Judd Hamilton? I'd love to know more
about him and who he is.
Also, there's a Johnny Cymbal project called Brother John (2
singles) - one of which I know had arrangements by Jimmie Haskell and
was produced by George Tobin - both sides are great - Polyanna (Paul
Davis) and Smokey (Cymbal / Clinger).
:Patrick
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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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