Spectropop V#0213

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   Volume #0213                        January 19, 1999   
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                        UNBREAKABLE                       








Subject:     Re: George Martin
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Marc Wielage,XXXXXXXXtrax.com
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Paul Urbahns  said on the Spectropop List:

>> I'll have to look this up to be absolutely sure, but I'm 99%
>> positive that what George Martin actually said was that with
>> Beatles records up to (and including?) the white album, the mono
>> mix was the one which he and the engineers spent the most time
>> and care on, with the stereo mixes done quickly and almost as an
>> afterthought.

>Yes, he did say that, but it was version 2 or 3 of his story. He
>even tried to say he didn't supervise the stereo mixes and let
>assistants to do the work, but someone wrote (in Goldmine I
>think) that George Martin's name is on the session sheets the
>stereos were created at.
>
>Nobody knows the truth ...in my opinion not even Martin.
>--------------------------------------<


Sir George knows more than he lets on. Back in 1986-1986, when 
the Beatles' CDs were first coming out, Martin got a lot of 
press talking about his (and the other Beatles') preference for 
the mono mixes for the first four albums. There was a lot of 
revisionist history that went on, where everybody disavowed any 
knowledge of the stereo LPs that were pressed all over the world
during the mid-1960s.

What did NOT get as much press was at least one astute reporter 
at (I think) BILLBOARD magazine, who quizzed Martin in-depth 
about the CD project. Martin explained that Capitol had 
forwarded, as a courtesy, brand-new stereo remixes of the first 
four albums to him, but he felt they sounded terrible. They 
asked him what could be done, and he told them it would take at 
least X weeks and cost X dollars for him to supervise "proper" 
new stereo mixes. Knowing how politically incorrect it would be 
for them to just go ahead and release the CDs as-is, with Martin
unhappy about it, they asked for his second-best suggestion: just
clean-up the original mono mixes and go with those.

When Martin has been politely pushed on the subject, he does 
admit that he would've liked the chance to go back and fix the 
"vocals on one side / instruments on the other" split-track 
stereo mixes on some of the tracks. The tragedy is that some of 
the stereo mixes on the original BEATLES FOR SALE and HARD DAYS 
NIGHT albums were fine; not _all_ of them were of the 
split-track variety, and they would've sounded perfectly OK. 
However, some of the mixes were pretty marginal, and those 
would've taken a lot more time and energy to try to fix. Martin 
tweaked some of these songs for the 1976 ROCK N' ROLL MUSIC 
compilation, basically just panning the two channels slightly 
together so that instead of getting killer-wide stereo, we got 
somewhat widened-out mono.

Unfortunately, with Martin semi-retired today (and suffering 
some hearing loss), he's reluctant to take on new projects. As a
side comment, I just about fell out of my chair yesterday when I 
came upon his new mix of John Lennon's "Grow Old with Me" 1980 
demo track, which now has full-blown orchestration on the JOHN 
LENNON ANTHOLOGY boxed set. It's honestly sad to hear it, 
because you realize what a great song it could've been, had 
Lennon lived to complete it.

Anyway, I'd definitely like to hear legitimate stereo CD 
releases of the first four Beatles albums, and for that matter, 
I'd like to see Capitol issue all the other albums in their mono
mixes, just for crazed collectors. That'd make a helluva boxed 
set -- "All Mono! All The Time!" -- if only for completists.

I'd go a step further and ask for all the original 1960s Capitol
U.S. albums as well. Despite their radically-altered "Dave Dexter" 
mixes and song sequences, I think a lot of us who grew up in 
the 1960s would find them very nostalgic. However, one Capitol 
insider tells me it'd be a cold day in hell before a move like 
this would ever be approved inside the Capitol Tower. Let's just
say it might happen if, say, K-Tel were to buy EMI tomorrow. 


--MFW

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-= MusicTrax, LLC    |       on rock, pop, & soul."      =-
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Subject:     Alfie/Doo Dah/Earl vs. Hal
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Frank Youngwerth, FXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

I assume "Alfie" was written for the film of the same name, 
which I caught on TV for the first time last year. Finally, over
the end credits, came Burt & Hal's fab tune. I was anticipating 
hearing Dionne, but wow, for the movie it's sung by Cher 
("produced by Sonny")! Did everybody know this? It sure surprised 
me. On one hearing (from my TV) I wouldn't say Cher quite did a 
bang bang-up job exactly, but it's still a pretty groovy version
--and not too widely available now, considering all the 
Bacharach comps that have been popping up.

> GLAD ALL OVER's "Doo Dah," which is simply fascinating in its 
> awfulness: okay, a waltz played at funeral dirge speed with lyrics 
> that slightly rewrite "Camptown Races" into directions for a 
> would-be dance craze. Who on earth thought this was a good idea

I used to like to play "Doo Dah" for friends for a laugh (until 
I discovered the incredibly inept guitar break on the--love 'em--
Gants cover of "Shapes of Things"). If I remember right, though
this DC5 track is in 4/4, with a groove not unlike that of 
Spector's "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah." Maybe even an early tribute to 
Phil?

My question to Carol: Now both you and Jack Nitzsche (in 
Goldmine years ago) have made statements apparently favoring 
Earl Palmer over Hal Blaine as all- time best studio drummer. 
I've listened to them both extensively, and I'd tend to give Hal
the edge. Earl transplanted the New Orleans "second line" beat to
the Hollywood studios, and was a crucial force in early rock & 
roll (Fats, Richard). But assuming that's Earl with you on Al 
Martino's "Spanish Eyes," it sounds like maybe when he couldn't 
rock out, sometimes he'd just keep time. Whereas Hal obviously 
liked to get more involved with the productions and arrangements, 
coming up with hooks that would often help make the record a 
hit. Could Earl Palmer have done, say, Alpert's "A Taste of 
Honey," Grass Roots' "Midnight Confessions," or Andy's "Happy 
Heart" ? I could be way off base here, Carol, and I know if I 
need to be corrected, you're the one to do it.

Frank 


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Subject:     Sue Thompson
Received:    01/17/99 2:40 pm
From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com


Carol Kaye wrote:

>Doc, that's interesting about Sue Thompson, although, and I have
>to be delicate about this, most singers, especially if they're 
>experienced, don't have to be told where the beat is or phrasing
>etc., or anything about the inside meters. The beat is always 
>there, like a trolley line, all you have to do is "hook into it"
>-- and you automatically know where 8 bars are, all those things 
>that musicians feel too. It's understood where the bars of music
>are, the rhythm of a song, meters etc.
>
>Some singers in pop music do not have that experience I speak of
>(imo), but they have other things; a voice, personality, overall 
>presentation, aura, or ? that the record co. is banking on 
>overall to make it big. All the studio backup singers know what 
>I'm talking about here -- as do all experienced fine musicians, 
>too. It's just a matter of having done it for decades, that's 
>all.

Carol,

You have played on a great many records, including hit records. 
You are a famous session player. Yet you are largely unknown to 
the general public.

Similarly, Sue Thompson is known by most people only for her two
early-'60s hits, "Sad Movies" and Norman." So it is 
understandable that even you might assume that Sue was an 
inexperienced singer when she recorded "Norman" and had trouble 
with the meter. However, nothing could be further from the truth!

Sue was born in 1926, so she was no Spring chicken when she 
recorded "Norman" in 1961. In fact, "Norman" was her 18th of 78 
45s and 78s. She recorded her first record in 1951. Over the 
years, she recorded for Mercury, Decca, Columbia, and Hickory.

Sue's 5th record was the original version of the now classic "
You Belong To Me" (pre-dating Joni James, the Duprees, etc.)

Growing up in abject poverty, Sue never had singing lessons. Her
parents lost their Missouri farm to the bank during the 
depression. She got her chance to become a singer when she won a
beauty contest in 1948. The prize was a gig singing with a big 
band in Vaudeville.

Between that time and "Norman," Sue made countless appearances 
on the Grand Old Opry, the Tennessee Ernie Ford Show, etc. She 
also starred in her own long-running radio and TV shows in LA in
the '50s. She played Vegas regularly for many years.

THEN she recorded "Norman."

By the way, when she had her hit "Paper Tiger" in 1965, she 
toured with teen acts and appeared on Hullabaloo, passing for 19
when she was really 39!

I admire Sue's ability to be honest about her own shortcoming as
a vocalist.

Sue: "I used to have a hard time figuring out what 'meter' was. 
We had a piano player we called 'Prof' (for professor) in Dude 
Martin's band in San Francisco. He had been with the Milwaukee 
Symphony and worked with Liberace. We would finish rehearsing a 
song, and he would say, 'That's fine, but wait just a minute, 
Dude.' Dude would ask what he wanted. 'That's just fine, but 
let's meter this. Let's get it in meter.' To me, that was a 
totally new language. I learned a lot from those people. They 
were wonderful musicians who all played classical music with 
other groups besides playing swing with Dude. They were nice 
people who fortunately took time to work with me and teach me. 
So singing behind the beat is something that I'm more 
comfortable with. Now it's just habit."

Yes, Carol, Sue had a gimmick, her voice. But she also had vast 
experience, lasting success, and -- meter troubles!

Doc Rock


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Subject:     Shangri-Las
Received:    01/19/99 4:08 am
From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

In a message dated 1/17/99 5:30:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
spectrXXXXXXXXties.com writes:

>The Shangri-la's, as you might expect, were just three 
>impostors - all obviously far too young to have been out of 
>diapers when the real group was in the charts. 

Ian had a bad expreience, but last Summer (August) in Louisville
the real Shangri-las were there and looking great. The current 
group is two of the original members (out of three isn't bad) 
andf the daughter of one of the two on stage. They said their 
names and I have a couple of pictures I took of them. Great show.

Paul
PaulurXXXXXXXXom


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Subject:     Re: Arbogast & Ross
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

> ...Does anyone remember 
> the record Stan put out with Bob Arbogast in 1958 called "Chaos"? 
> It was a satire on RnR radio of that time ("KOS, Kay-os Radio") 
> & was issued on Liberty 55197 but never charted. One of the 
> funniest records I've ever heard (being an ex-jock), complete 
> with fast-talking DJ & hilarious jingles 


It is amazing how many topics come up in here which I covered in
my book, Liberty Records. I hope you-all are not getting fed up 
with my quoting the book!

"Bill Stewart put on the second [and last] annual DJ convention 
in Miami, Florida. . .It was at this convention when Liberty 
distributed a satire of top-40 radio on a special record, free 
to all the top-40 radio people attending the convention. The 
Liberty people expected that these radio folk would be up for a 
big joke at their own expense. As Don Blocker found out, radio 
folk may like a good joke, but not one at their own expense, and
Liberty "took a big setback with that."

Meaning many Liberty 45s did not get airplay for some time 
because DJs were anti-Liberty.

There were all sorts of things like this that rock historians 
know nothing about. That is to say, a writer will say that 
such-and-such a record failed to chart because it was uninspired, 
a bad follow-up, too slow, too fast, or whatever, when in fact
there may be some totally obscure reason why a record fails -- or
succeeds, that has nothing to do with art!

The record was Liberty 55197, Chaos -- Part I, Chaos -- Part II 
by Arbogast & Ross.

Doc


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Subject:     Ronnie Spector EP
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        john rausch, XXXXXXXXnet
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Ronnie`s new 4 track ep is due for release 1/18/98 supposedly a 
ltd. edition of 5000 copies. there is a US mail order ad in the 
new Discoveries mag to order for 11.99 I haven`t seen any other 
places offering this yet so I din`t know if this is a great 
price or not. The ad is at work and I won`t be in till Tuesday 
so if anyone is interested in the mail order address and/or 
email, drop me a line at: 

XXXXXXXXnet 

and I can send it to you.


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Subject:     grimacing
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Doc Rock, docrXXXXXXXXcom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Dave wrote:

>This is something I've always wondered about. In rock and 
>classical music, it's common for soloists to grimace, gesture, 
>close their eyes, sway, or otherwise freak out. I've always 
>assumed that much of this movement was showmanship, especially 
>because most (but not all, by any means) jazz soloists tend 
>toward the "robotic look" school.

Dave, 

I have asked many (nom-grimacing) musicians about this. They, 
too, wonder about the grimacing. After all, classical guitarists
play difficult licks without making faces. The consensus is that 
1) they may be bad players who really do have to make faces, 02 ) 
they are faking so it looks difficult or soulful,), 03 ) it comes 
from being on drugs while trying to put on a show or 4) they are
imitating late '60s artists who were on drugs and could hardly 
play they were so stoned!

Doc


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Subject:     Showmanship
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Carol Kaye, carolXXXXXXXXlink.net
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Dave,

I do think it's mostly showmanship, but maybe the rockers do 
"feel" that way too, I'm not sure. I can only speak from the jazz
musician's standpoint. It really bothers me to watch any of that;
it seems so pretentious to me -- there's a street name for it: 
"styling and profiling".

No, it's not "repressed" feelings, not to move. It's total 
concentration on what you're doing - music being the most 
important aspect of the whole jazz scene - it's not a "show".

The jazz musician (speaking in general here, but pretty sure it 
was wide-spread back in the 50s) does not feel the "urge to move
around when playing a lot of great jazz" soloing -- simply not 
done - you have to have complete self-honesty to be a fine jazz 
musician and showmanship is sort of the opposite of that in jazz.

Rock has more of the danceable music to it too which may account
for some of that, but I personally think it's mostly showmanship 
that the audience likes.

I took a sub gig playing in back of Tony Orlando (about 1977 at 
the Hilton in Las Vegas) and really saw some showmanship. Tony 
is/was a nice fellow, but there is a lot of showmansip in 
putting on a stage act. I know from many of the rockers I have 
taught bass to over the years, talked w/them, taught them music,
etc.; it's showmanship.

I recorded w/Johnny Ray. Nice man, he didn't move a muscle. But 
on the other hand, Joe Cocker was all over the place when we cut
"Feelin' Alright" at Sunset Sound in summer 1968. He was moved by
the music and was real. The rest of the artists we recorded for 
couldn't move off-mike and were very subdued. Even with the 
trackings. It was a business of getting a hit-record, so the 
showmanship wasn't necessary.

I know and worked a lot for Mike Curb, before he became a 
politician. Sharp fellow, didn't know music too well, but knew 
what he liked, was pleasant to work for, all dressed up all the 
time. Played on some hits for him. 


Carol Kaye http://www.carolkaye.com/


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Subject:     Drifting in the Land of Make Believe
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        Jamie LePage, le_pageXXXXXXXXties.com
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Jim Cassidy wrote:

>Both Dusty's and Dionne's versions of "In the Land of Make 
>Believe" present the song as kind of an erotic daydream...
>For a *completely* different interpretation of this song, 
>try to find The Drifters' version (Is it on the "Rockin' & 
>Driftin'" collection, Jamie? I only have it on an old, 
>scratchy LP). Sung with passionate intensity by Rudy Lewis 
>and accompanied by a more dissonant, discordant musical 
>arrangement, it sounds as if the singer has gone off the 
>deep end....

When I read David Ponak's post, I checked my Dusty records; I 
guess I haven't heard her version. So, I went back to the Make 
Way for Dionne Warwick album. With "Close To You", "Reach Out 
For Me", "You'll Never Get To Heaven", "Walk On By", "Wishin' 
And Hopin'" and "Make the Night Last a Little Longer", this is 
one of Dionne's strongest albums. God forgive the people at 
Scepter for this jacket design. The back panel is fine. The 
front, however, is an embarrassment. By the cover you'd never 
guess this was one of Burt Bacharach's and Hal David's finest 
achievements. I like 60's kitsch and all, but this front jacket 
goes far beyond the boundaries of good taste.

I can't comment on Dusty's version of "In the Land of Make 
Believe"; but the Drifters take (yes it is on the Rhino set) is 
far, far more powerful than the Dionne version. The "passionate 
intensity" you speak of is comparable, I think, to the great run
of Motown hits by Levi Stubbs and the 4 Tops. In a word, 
irreproachable.

I don't quite get what you mean by "dissonant, discordant 
musical arrangement". Certainly there is that eerie sort of high
octave unison thing happening... Anyway, there is a lot of 
tension and anguish in the melody and the Drifters version is 
100% persuasive.

None of this is a discredit to Bacharach. Dionne's version is a 
very fine album track. Especially on this hit-filled LP.

Disclaimer: my _Make Way_ too is an old, scratchy album, 
and the Drifters CDs sound incredible.

One more thing: David, as much as I love Dionne's version of I 
Say a Little Prayer, Aretha rules the roost, baby!

--
All the best,
Jamie LePage 


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Subject:     Unavailable Ronnie tracks
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        IAC, ianXXXXXXXXlnet.co.uk
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com


>Any other Phil & Ronnie tracks for this "wish list"?


Yeah, there's another Philles version of "I Wish I Never Saw The
Sunshine" still in the can. It's a different arrangement - faster
in tempo, almost as fast as "Do I Love You" - and has background 
vocals in the intro and throughout singing "Wish I Never/Met You
Baby/Wish I Never/Had Your Love......" Ronnie sings well, but the
tempo doesn't really allow her to inject the same level of 
emotion as she does on the version we're familiar with, and the 
production's nowhere near as grandiose. I wouldn't be surprised 
if it's actually one of Bob Crewe's late-Philles productions.

Ian Chapman


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Subject:     Uncollected Sides
Received:    01/19/99 4:08 am
From:        Paul Urbahns, PaulurXXXXXXXXom
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Jamie came up with a good Ronettes list, but I will 
make a few comments:

You Came, You Saw, You Conquered (formerly unavailable)

This is on the single Ronettes Cd from ABKCO but it's in mono. 
I'd like to see it out in stereo since it was done at the same 
time and studios as the Chaeckmates Ltd material at that has 
been out in stereo. I remember the first time I heard the song 
on a promo copy delivered to a station I was working at. Great 
record! Unfortunately the PD was too old to recognize the name. 
the comeback was just not in the cards.

>I Can Hear Music (currently unavailable)

I hear there was a Phil Spector produced version of this done, 
but it's probably just a rumor. Be great to hear it if there was
such a thing. Imagine the difference between the Jeff Barry 
produced "Girls can Tell" on Red Bird and the Spector versions 
on Philles. Well Jeff produced the known version of I Can Hear 
Music, so if Phil had done a version it would probably be fuller, 
like the Beach Boys version was.

>Blues For Baby (currently unavailable)

Don't think I've heard Blues For Baby I thought it was an 
instrumental B side.

>Try Some, Buy Some / Tandouri Chicken 

The only way Try Some, Buy Some would probably get released is 
if someone does an Apple Box set. Tandouri Chicken was a throw 
away so hold on to your 45s.

Paul Urbahns
paulurXXXXXXXXom


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Subject:     Uncollected Ronnie
Received:    01/19/99 1:19 am
From:        john rausch, XXXXXXXXnet
To:          Spectropop List, spectrXXXXXXXXties.com

Oh boy Jamie, did you open up a can of worms!!

Uncollected Ronnie? where do i start? Your list is a good start 
but I would like to ad other recordings Ronnie has done over the
years, enough for 2 cds. not all are Phil Spector related tho... 
hope thats ok. it`s a bit long and I have them all in one form 
or the other.

Here goes:

you bet i would-ronettes (original mono version released on the 
may label and is a different version than the stereo track on 
the colpix lp)

i wish i never saw the sunshine-ronettes (different philles era 
version than which has since been released . produced by jeff 
barry)

you -ronnie spector (2 versions from an apple records acetate 
which were instrumentals only but ronnie can be heard 
whoa-oh-ohing in the background and this was later used by 
george harrison and released on his "extra texture " lp . george
did the same thing earlier by erasing ronnies vocal on "try some, 
buy some" and recording over the same instrumental track on 
his lp "living in the material world"

lovely la-de-day -ronnie spector (another apple records acetate 
also with an alternate title"loverly laddy day")

i love him like i love my very life-ronnie (yet another apple 
records acetate) later recorded by darlene love. with all these 
acetates, plus "try some, buy some" it would seem phil was 
planning on recording an album for ronnie.

i wish i never saw the sunshine-ronnie spector and the ronettes(
2 different ronettes) on buddah records(a truncated version at 1
:50 . the 3:00 version appeared on the 1992 cd release of "the 
ronettes/colpix and buddah years"

lover, lover-ronnie spector and the ronettes -buddah records

go out and get it-ronnie spector and the ronettes -buddah records

i wonder what hes doing - ronnie spector and the ronettes - 
buddah records(these 4 buddah singles appeared on the cd "the 
ronettes buddah/colpix years")

youd be good for me-ronnie spector(single edit and 12" extended 
disco mix. tomcat records)

something tells me -ronnie spector(bside of the above)

common thief -ronnie spector (unreleased track reportedly from 
the siren lp)

its a heartache

i wanna come over (is that what time it is) both from alston 
records

tonight(demo version)

darlin' (demo version)

let your feelings show (demo version) all3 from the siren lp 
sessions

tonight you're mine (demo take and released version from the 
soundtrack "just one of the guys"

you and me go way back-ronnie spector, john sebastion,roger 
mcguinn and felix cavaliere(from the "deja view" special"

can't we try-ronnie spector and dan hill (demo)

communication

something's gonna happen

for his love

whenever you're on my mind (these 4 produced by allan betrock)

little rosey-from the sat morn cartoon for rosanne

creation of love (xmas song originally by frankie lymon)

rockin' round the xmas tree-ronnie and darlene love

farewell to a sex symbol (from a rock opera cd from the uk)

blue coral reef (japan only v.a. comp)

courting you on side 2

karen

never ending wind (3 more from a japan only comp)

brace yourself (from an otis blackwell tribute)

i love you so -felix cavaliere and veronica (Japan only tribute 
to arthur alexander)

so in need of a change -atomic swing featuring ronnie spector 
(dutch band with ronnie doing the guest lead)

want more?...part 2 to be continue
jonr
Presenting the Fabulous 
RonetXXXXXXXX://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/2469/
                         and
Phil Spector`s Wall Of SoXXXXXXXX://members.tripod.com/~rauschj/


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