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SPECTROPOP - Spectacular! Retro! Pop!
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There are 27 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: 60s geniuses
From: C. Ponti
2. Kim Fowley
From: S'pop Projects
3. Re: Brian Wilson Influence
From: hobielang
4. Re: Dick St. John Photo
From: Bob Celli
5. Re: Avantis
From: Mikey
6. Re: The Shadows
From: Austin Roberts
7. Re: Left Banke
From: Austin Roberts
8. Re: Left Banke 45 on Camerica
From: Mark Frumento
9. Re: If I Were the Carpenters. . . .
From: Mark Frumento
10. Re: The Avantis
From: Simon White
11. Re: High Llamas
From: Stewart Mason
12. Re: Lafayettes
From: Austin Roberts
13. Re: The Bayou, DC.
From: Austin Roberts
14. Re: Hollywood
From: Austin Roberts
15. Re: Dick St. John Photo
From: James Botticelli
16. Re: Grass Roots / Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds
From: Austin Roberts
17. Kim Fowley
From: Eddy
18. Re: Stereo 45s
From: Joe Nelson
19. Re: Stereo 45s
From: Joe Nelson
20. Goodbye to Jailbait
From: S'pop Team
21. Re: Arkade
From: Joe Nelson
22. Re: Stereo 45s
From: Michael Fishberg
23. Re: High Llamas
From: Mark Frumento
24. Re: The Shadows
From: Steve Harvey
25. J., not J.J., Cale
From: Steve Harvey
26. Song titles with brackets
From: Richard Williams
27. Re: Ron Dante
From: Joe Nelson
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Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2003 21:03:55 -0000
From: C. Ponti
Subject: Re: 60s geniuses
Paul Bryant:
> If we're talking about "most influential people" then immediately
> James Brown and Lou Reed must be added and probably Brian Wilson
> removed (can't think of many people who aspired to be like him or
> the Beach Boys, with the notable exception of the barking mad High
> Llamas).
Granted these are choppily subjective waters, but, in my humble
opinion, comparing the work of Lou Reed to the pocket symphonies of
Brian Wilson & Van Dyke Parks is like comparing a hot dog with a
French feast.
C Ponti
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Admin Note: This message has been edited. Clearly,
C Ponti is no fan of Lou Reed. Rather than generate
subjective exchanges, your moderators request that
any further discussion on this topic be conducted
off list.
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:18:56 -0000
From: S'pop Projects
Subject: Kim Fowley
New @ S'pop Recommends
'Impossible But True: The Kim Fowley Story' (Ace CDCHD 888)
"Parents, lock up your daughters -- Kim Fowley is back in town.
... The fact that he was, either variously or simultaneously, a
rock'n'roll anarchist, Dadaist, hustler, B.S. artist, Sybarite,
namedropper and foole should not deter us from the realization
that Kim Fowley was also one talented mofo." (Phil Milstein)
For Phil's full review, click here:
http://www.spectropop.com/recommends/index2004.htm#KimFowley
Enjoy!
The S'pop Team
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:46:55 EST
From: hobielang
Subject: Re: Brian Wilson Influence
Wayne writes:
> What I find interesting is that there is a plethora of soundalikes
> out there and to my ears always sound like a poor man's version of
> The Beach Boys. The harder guys attempt to sound like them the
> worst they fare.
>
> Conversely, there are more artists abroad who cite The Beatles as
> amajor influence, yet to my ears fare better, not to supercede the
> template, (with respect to The Rutles!) but its as if The Beatles
> influence allows broader musical brush-strokes. Again, I think this
> is because Brian's musical vision was more exclusively his, (with
> due respect to The Freshmen and Chuck Berry and Spector).
Don't forget the voices singing Brian's message. There is something
that happens when relatives sing together, and it happened here.
Factor in the similiarity between Brian's voice and Al's, and the
fact that David Marks and Carl Wilson - the two early guitarists -
grew up in each others' houses, and you've got a unique blend of
common knowledge and influences that the Beatles dind't share - they
didn't grow up together.
Something else to consider when you look at Brian's music -
specifically at the *music, forget the lyrics and the execution - is
the fact that it is extremely complex. Sounds simple, yup...but go
on. Try to play those songs. The easiest ones are more involved than
you thought, and the more involved ones are brain-twisters.
There was a unique alignment of the planets when the Beach Boys
started making music. Terry Pratchett talks about moments of
brilliance streaming through the universe all the time, and almost
never landing anywhere. I'd say that one such moment landed in
Hawthorne, California in 1961. There's no other explanation.
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 03:06:13 -0000
From: Bob Celli
Subject: Re: Dick St. John Photo
I wrote:
> I've posted a photo taken at a picnic I held on Memorial Day,
> 1987 for the tour going through my area in Ohio. The guests
> included, Bobby Vee, Brian Hyland, Tommy Roe, Dick and Sandy
> St. John (pictured) and Dickey Lee along with Bobby Vee's band,
> The Rockin' Ricochettes...
Phil Milstein:
> A remarkable photo, Bob -- thanks for sharing it with us. The
> celebrants look more like office co-workers hanging out on
> their day off than touring musicians who'd helped make the '60s
> the amazing era that it was...It's reassuring to hear that Dick
> was as nice a guy as he seemed...
Phil, Thanks for the comments! These guys really appreciated the
time off the road. it's really a grind on those tours no matter how
long or short they are. I brought Dick in the house and showed him
a scopitone that he and Dee Dee appeared in. He told me that he had
never seen it and asked for a copy of it which I gladly made. It
was at that time that I asked him if he was still in touch with his
former partner. He told me that they were still friends and kept in
touch periodically. It was at that time that some of the "oldies"
were making there way to cd and I had the privilege of playing
"Sheila" for Tommy Roe and "Itsy Bitsy" for Brian Hyland from a
very well done compilation on MCA. This was the first time either
one of them had heard these remastered versions. The Buddy Holly
"From The Original Master Tapes cd was also out, and probably the
most fascinating thing that happened that day was when I played
"True Love Ways" to an audience of Bobby Vee, Tommy Roe and Brian
Hyland. As the song was coming to an end I looked at the three
artists standing there, their heads all bowed and in complete
silence. Quite a scene!
Bob Celli
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:16:26 -0500
From: Mikey
Subject: Re: Avantis
Mike Edwards:
> The Avantis - now there's a group, or maybe two.
Mike, the "Instrumental" Avantis and the "Keep on Dancing"
Avantis were different groups.
Mikey
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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:36:58 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: The Shadows
Probably because most of the instrumental groups at that time
(not all) were surf oriented. Plus there would always be the
problem with the Ventures. I heard some of the Shadows' British
hits and liked them a lot. Had a friend who had an English
friend who would send them to him. We both thought they should've
happened here too. We were about 14 and playing in this surf
group at school.
Best, Austin Roberts
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Message: 7
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 22:46:41 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: Left Banke
Phil Milstein:
> According to legend, Brown wrote "Renee" and "Ballerina" on the
> same day (as well as a third masterpiece -- "Desiree," was it?
> "She May Call..."?). If this is even close to the truth, it
> almost defies belief.
I think Desiree is on a par with Renee and Ballerina. Great
haunting melody and vocal, but also that super Banke arrangement
that was best on those 3 sides, I feel. Also, for some reason I've
always liked Ballerina for the same reason that I liked the Bee
Gees' Holiday; can't define the reason, just know I feel it.
Austin Roberts
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Message: 8
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 04:56:44 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: Left Banke 45 on Camerica
Steve Harvey wrote:
> There was a whole Left Banke LP released in the 70/80s. I don't
> think Brown had anything to do with it.
He didn't but its a wonderful LP none-the-less... mainly bolstered
by Steve Martin's vocals.
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Message: 9
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 04:59:14 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: If I Were the Carpenters. . . .
Steve Harvey wrote:
> Actually "We're Only Just Begun" started originally as a bank
> commercial.
I always thought "Someday My Prince Will Come" would have made a
great commercial for a one-hour photo operation... "some day my
prints will come..."
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Message: 10
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:35:02 +0000
From: Simon White
Subject: Re: The Avantis
Mike Edward wrote:
> The Avantis – now there's a group, or maybe two. A group named
> the Avantis cut a superb surf instrumental, "Wax `Em Down" for
> Chancellor Records in 1963. This was re-issued on a Pittsburgh
> label, Astra, sometime in the 60s. According to Surf Instrumental
> guru, John Blair, the group included Pat & Lolly Vegas (later of
> Redbone fame). In the same year, the Chess Records subsidiary,
> Argo, put out the Avantis' original version of "Keep On Dancin'",
> later a hit for the Gentrys. Is this the same group?
My understanding is that the "Keep On Dancin" Avantis were a black
group, so maybe not. But what a super record it is!
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Message: 11
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 00:46:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Stewart Mason
Subject: Re: High Llamas
Paul Bryant writes:
> This is the problem of definition I'm struggling with. On the one
> hand you have straight-forward imitators or creators of pastiches
> - all of the Gideon Gaye and Hawaii albums by the High Llamas are
> brilliant pastiches. The listening experience is like train-
> spotting - oh yes, that's the guitar sound from Here Today,
> there's the banjo from Cabinessence. It's very clever stuff but
> it's somewhat slavish. On the other hand, as you say, you have
> the kind of influences which are "so fully incorporated into
> shared culture that they're hard to detect". So I guess I'm
> looking for a middle way here.
To be fair to the High Llamas, a group I admire quite a bit, the
idea that they're "straightforward imitators or creators of
pastiches" isn't entirely accurate. Even on GIDEON GAYE, their one
album that's overtly Brian Wilson-influenced, there are plenty of
other obvious influences (especially Steely Dan, particularly on the
single "Checking In, Checking Out" and the 14-minute, overtly jazz-
oriented "Track Goes By") that keep it from being a Rutle-ization of
PET SOUNDS. As for HAWAII, I hear Brian Wilson far less than I hear
Ennio Morricone, Kryztof Komeda and other European soundtrack
composers of the '60s, by far a much bigger influence on that album
but one that's not remarked upon nearly as much simply because most
folks are much less familiar with those composers than they are with
Brian Wilson.
In both cases, Brian Wilson is only one of many, many influences on
these albums (I'd argue that Nick Drake and Antonio Carlos Jobim are,
in the long run, far more important to the High Llamas' career as a
whole), and to claim that listening to them is merely an exercise in
empty Beach Boys trainspotting perhaps misses the way in which these
disparate influences are combined into a singular whole. More
importantly, it's so easy to overstate Wilson's influence on these
two albums that any Spectropoppers intrigued by their supposed Xerox-
of-SMILE qualities might well be disappointed when they hear them and
discover that, frankly, with the exception of a few licks here and
there (for example, the main riff from GIDEON GAYE's "The Goat Looks
On" is a dead ringer for "Let's Go Away For A While"), they don't
really sound much like Brian Wilson at all. (This goes double and
triple for the albums that came before and after GIDEON GAYE (1994)
and HAWAII (1996): the two prior albums soundmore like XTC than anyone
else, the three that followed are heavily influenced by modern
European electronic artists like Mouse On Mars, and the most recent,
BEET MAIZE AND CORN, is largely acoustic and nearly percussion-free.)
S
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Message: 12
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:11:03 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: Lafayettes
Thanx for the rest of the lyric. I'd never have remembered.
You gotta admit, it is a bit quirky.
Austin
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Message: 13
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:22:26 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: The Bayou, DC.
Finally, my buddy from Cheverly, Md. reminded me it was the
Telstars that I liked so much at the Bayou. More mid 60's, I
think.
Austin
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Message: 14
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:51:11 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: Hollywood
I remember those areas. I once lived in a shack with a banana
tree on Selma Ave. somewhere near Sunset and Vine or Hollywood
and Vine; can't remember for sure because the two ran parallel
to each other. It was probably between the two so Selma (???).
Great creative stuff in that area back in those days.
AR
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Message: 15
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 01:27:51 -0500
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Dick St. John Photo
Phil Milstein wrote:
> The celebrants look more like office co-workers hanging out on
> their day off than touring musicians who'd helped make the '60s
> the amazing era that it was.
hahahahahaha! My feelings about the 6T's in general.
Happy New Year all.
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Message: 16
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 02:28:37 EST
From: Austin Roberts
Subject: Re: Grass Roots / Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds
Glenn:
> Oh, you mean the Hamilton, Joe Frank & Reynolds that recorded
> "Don't Pull Your Love", a song written for (but turned down by)
> the Grass Roots, produced by the Roots' producer Steve Barri,
> horns arranged by their arranger Jimmie Haskell, written by their
> writers Dennis Lambert & Brian Potter, and on their label ABC/
> Dunhill?
OK, you new buddies out there, I need some sympathy on 2 of the 3
things I'm gonna admit to here.
No. 1: The Arkade, who had just come off a top 60 or so pop sorta
hit (also was top 15 adult contempt charts and it did become the
Bridal air jingle everywhere which would have been more opportune
for us if it had happened simultaneously with the record) but were
asked after the Roots if we wanted to cut Don't Pull Your Love Out
to follow Morning Of Our Lives. Well, Price and Walsh were the other
two guys in our group as well as writers of several Roots hits like
Temtation Eyes, Heaven Knows and others as well as great harmony
singers. So as the cocky youngsters we were, we had a meeting with
Steve Barri who was our producer, as well as the Grassroots and HJF
and R, but they hadn't recorded yet.
Got the picture so far? We, in our brilliant Legends In Our Own
Minds way, decided not to cut the song. Steve,ever the diplomat,
rolled his eyes, which should have set off some kind of alarm with
the wonderful Arkade boys but, obviously didn't, took the song in
the studio that very night, I think, and cut what should have been
the Roots next hit, could have been our hit (though HJF and R sang
the hell out of it) but was a career starting record for Hamilton,
Joe Frank and Reynolds.
Ok, that was the first sypathy call. Here's the second. John Hill
(of Are You Ready fame) and I wrote a song called Stealing Love In
The Night, which became the last Dunhill single on the Grassroots,
who, dammit, had already left the label for Haven. Guess how much
push our single got.
Now, for the `here's hoping I'm right' part . I think that a song
Chris Welch and I wrote called One Word, was on the Move Along
album but, I don't have one, so I'm not sure. If anybody has one,
please let me know if One Word is on it. I'd be much abliged.
Sorry this email is so verbose, but most songwriters are.
Happy New Year, Austin Roberts
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Message: 17
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 18:35:53 +0100
From: Eddy
Subject: Kim Fowley
I wandered off to the "Spectropop recommends" section, where I
noticed a Kim Fowley Story album. I was wondering if anybody
had any information on any work Fowley did with Eric Clapton.
Reportedly they did some stuff together circa 1966 and I wondered
if anybody had any information on what that could have been.
Probably a Fowley 45 Clapton guested on, but I'm not even sure
anything was ever released.
Eddy
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Message: 18
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 07:32:12 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Stereo 45s
> I have read Mercury's pressing plant was ran soooo cheaply that
> when the mono mother plates (made to press LP's) wore out they'd
> just switch to the stereo mother plate instead of making another
> mono mother and press "mono" albums with it. So mono buyers got a
> bonus or a LP that wore out very quickly on a cheap mono phonograph.
> I have a Walker Bros album on Smash where the first side is mono,
> the second side is Stereo!
This might also be a later pressing, after Mercury and most US labels
dropped the mono format. They'd had some old mono covers printed up
and still in stock, so they'd fill 'em with the only things they were
pressing (i.e. stereo) and ship' em out. I have a few of these lying
around the collection but don't remember offhand if they were on
Mercury labels or not.
Joe Nelson
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Message: 19
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 07:35:14 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Stereo 45s
> Did a little bit of checking and the first all-stereo 45
> from 1967 I have is the Lemon Pipers "Green Tamborine"
> (Buddah 23), which hit #1 on Billboard December 23, 1967.
All stereo? Meaning no mono counterpart was released? My copy
of this is in mono. You might want to check again and make sure
you're not confusing it with "Rice Is Nice".
Joe Nelson
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Message: 20
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:14:44 -0000
From: S'pop Team
Subject: Goodbye to Jailbait
As with all subjective issues, the relatively contentious
'jailbait' thread threatens to run indefinitely. For reasons
of space and taste, please let's start the new year without
it. The edited contributions printed below will be the last
your moderators post on this subject. Thanks.
S'pop Team
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Bob Wallis wrote:
> Boston area group Teddy and the Pandas had a regionally
> hit song in 1965 (which bubbled under the BB 100) in the
> Bob Stone penned tune "We Can't Go On This Way".
Art Longmire:
I have this song in a later version by the Unchained Minds
(actually I think they spell it "Unchained Mynds") - on
Buddah Records.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Matthew:
> This is a very subjective topic and you can take a song to
> mean whatever you think, hell you can read stuff into a song
> that was never meant to be there.
Art Longmire:
Great list, thanks a lot! I also wanted to add "Cypress Avenue"
by Van Morrison on Astral Weeks to the list, as well as "He
Ain't Give You None" by Van.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Matthew:
> a list of possible jailbait songs:
Bryan:
I didn't see the Beatles' "I Saw Her Standing There" on the
list: "Well, she was just seventeen, You know what I mean..."
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Has anyone mentioned Terry Reid's "Super Lungs" or Donovan's
version entitled "Super Lungs, My Super girl"?
Bill Craig
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Phil M
> Of course this is no place for a discussion of sexual
> morality, but since Glenn brought it up I'd like to point
> out that society does (or at least should) make a clear
> distinction between sex between near-age partners, and sex
> between an adult and a minor.
Glenn:
I think I'll stay out of this topic from now on, but I'd like
to point out that it was not *I* who brought up the subject
of sexual morality, but the person who launched the attack on
"Young Girl", saying it had "the most.. morally suspect...
lyrics... of any HIT single."
In the meantime, a parallel discussion, with which I had
nothing to do, seemed to be accusing Gilbert O'Sullivan's
"Claire" of being paedophiliac in nature, which, IMHO, is
ridiculous! I'm sorry, I just find that to be such a
wrong-headed interpretation of a tender, innocent song.
The song concerns a topic rarely written about, probably for
fear of such misinterpretations of the feelings expressed,
but it's a topic that should be celebrated, as O'Sullivan
did in this song.
Glenn
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
"Go Away Little Girl", originally the '62 smash for Steve
Lawrence...... would anyone else agree that's one of the
biggest "jailbait" hits of all time? Although his excuse for
not meeting with her is "I belong to someone else, and I must
be true"; still, I always thought Steve was singing about a
teenager!
Bobster
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
I'm surprised the Brianophiles on the list have not mentioned
that smarmy song from the BBs "M.I.U." LP that makes me
squeamish every time I hear it (especially the nastier demos).
The song is "Hey Little Tomboy.
Dave Mirich
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Message: 21
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 07:57:43 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Arkade
Austin Roberts wrote:
> OK, you new buddies out there, I need some sympathy on 2 of the 3
> things I'm gonna admit to here.
Not quite so earth shattering, but since we're playing confessional...
Before I was aware of Arkade at all much less Austin's connection to
the group, I found a copy of "Morning Of Our Lives" among my
daughter's 45s and decided to give it a spin. First I did a web
search and came up with several references to an earlier release,
"Rhythm Of The People" b/w "Woman In My Life (Dunhill 4235). Since
ROTP was also coupled with "Morning" on Dunhill 4268 I just assumed it
was the same song released twice with different couplings and put
"Morning" in my database as a B side! I'm still assuming they're both
the same take. Of course, both songs sound like A sides to me. Thanks
for everything, Austin!
Joe Nelson
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Message: 22
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 05:49:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Fishberg
Subject: Re: Stereo 45s
Bill Craig wrote:
> What was the first single released in stereo?
> I'm thinking "Touch Me" by the Doors, or possibly
> "Alone Again Or" by Love.
I have a stereo white label test 7" on UK Pye records dated (c) 1957
with the usual ping-pong and train sounds.
RCA Victor were recording true stereo from 1952 in Avery Fisher Hall
with the likes of Fiedler & The Boston Pops, so that when the means of
commercially manufacturing and reproducing stereo records came about,
they were ready for their big slew of releases.
I also recall some correspondence in Billboard magazine in the early 60s
that had record execs saying that they couldn't for "technical" reasons,
manufacture 45s in stereo.
Michael Fishberg
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Message: 23
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 15:05:17 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: Re: High Llamas
Stewart Mason wrote:
> As for HAWAII, I hear Brian Wilson far less than I hear
> Ennio Morricone, Kryztof Komeda and other European soundtrack
> composers of the '60s
I'm not a scholar of European soundtrack composers but I do love
Morricone's work especially his soundtrack to "Duck You Sucker" (aka
A Fist Full of Dynamite). A good portion of Hawaii struck me as
imitation of that soundtrack (perhaps others?).
Does anyone know much about Morricone's influences? It would be hard
to believe that he didn't know "Pet Sounds" and other Brian Wilson
songs. "Duck You Sucker" also has a strong Burt Bacharach melodic
feel to it.
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Message: 24
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 09:31:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Harvey
Subject: Re: The Shadows
When I met Bob Bogle at a rare Philly Ventures
appearance I asked him if they'd ever thought about
recording an album with the Shadows. He said the
closest they ever got was meeting Bruce Welch over in
Japan. Still, the idea would make a cool battle of the
bands concept.
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Message: 25
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 18:13:18 -0000
From: Steve Harvey
Subject: J., not J.J., Cale
I had the pleasure of playing John Cale's "Mr.Wilson" for
Brian in 1978. Brian could have cared less about the tune.
Mentioned it to John Cale at a later date and he replied,
"I bet he thought it was sarcastic". Despite me telling
him that Brian said nothing about the tune, Cale's remark
ended up in the double CD set, The Island Years, as more
misinformation. Oddly enough, the only thing that got
Brian's attention was the Kit Kats' version of "You're
So Good To Me".
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Message: 26
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 18:32:49 +0000
From: Richard Williams
Subject: Song titles with brackets
During the sessions for "Happy Xmas (War Is Over)", John
Lennon pointed out the brackets in the song's title and
said it was one of those pop-music habits that he liked
a lot. Among his ambitions, he said, was to write a song
with a title using one word repeated twice, like James Brown's
"Please Please Please" or the Beach Boys' "Dance Dance Dance"
and "Fun Fun Fun", but with two sets of brackets: the potential
example he gave, appropriately enough, was "(Yeah) Yeah (Yeah)".
Richard Williams
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Message: 27
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 08:10:34 -0500
From: Joe Nelson
Subject: Re: Ron Dante
About a year and a half ago, I'd seen a message in the S'pop
archives indicating that Ron was the lead singer on the Definitive
Rock Chorale's great "Mirrors of Your Mind". I contacted Ron
through a mutual friend and he said he was sorry, but he couldn't
remember the record. Damn.
Joe Nelson
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