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Jamie LePage (1953-2002)
http://www.spectropop.com/Jamie.htm
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There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: Richard Williams
2. Re: Online vinyl price guides?
From: zombie7123
3. An open letter to John Clemente regarding your book
From: Ronnie Allen
4. Casino Classics 2; Gabby; Barbara English
From: Mike Edwards
5. Open letter to John Clemente (#2) ..... regarding the Echelons
From: Ronnie Allen
6. Standing in the Shadows...
From: Richard Williams
7. WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
From: Don
8. In Shadow's shadow?
From: Mark Frumento
9. WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
From: Phil Chapman
10. Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
From: Mick Patrick
11. Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
From: Dan Hughes
12. RE: Standing In The Shadows...
From: Phil Chapman
13. Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
From: James Botticelli
14. Re: Chico's Girls
From: Mick Patrick
15. Reflecting on the Reflections
From: Martin Roberts
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Message: 1
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 11:12:11 +0100
From: Richard Williams
Subject: Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
I think I'm right and Mikey's wrong about hi-hats/ride cymbals
on Motown hits, but I'm in the road and can't go to the evidence.
I'm a drummer, too, for what that's worth. From memory, check
"These Things Will Keep Me Loving You" and "Back in My Arms
Again". And anyway if you couldn't hear them on the original
45s, the way they were compressed and cut for radio, then to
all intents and purposes they weren't there. (I'm gonna get
roasted for that!)
Phil Chapman will be surprised how little smoothing-out of
history there is in the film, although there is no mention
of the tracks cut in LA, as per Carol Kaye's various interviews
(dangerous to exaggerate LA's contribution, in my view). He may
also slightly revise his opinion about the degree of thought that
went into the sound; doesn't everybody accept that Motown's
records sounded so different because the producers and engineers
knew eaxctly what they were doing? Which is surely why even
"Stop Her On Sight" and "Higher and Higher", great as they are,
don't sound like Hitsville USA tracks.
As ever, I stand to be corrected.
Richard Williams
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:05:08 -0000
From: zombie7123
Subject: Re: Online vinyl price guides?
> You may want to try http://www.recordmaster.com. It's pretty
> limited (no return for the Reflections, for example), but
> it's the only site I know of that has values listed.
Thanks for the site. Looks pretty good! I've found a lot of
really obscure stuff -- I even searched for the Reflections,
to see why you couldn't find any listings, and zillions of
Reflections search results came back! Not sure what you did
wrong. The trick on this site is you have to spell things
absolutely perfectly, or you get zero results. For example,
"reflections" with a lower-case "r" gets you nothing, but
"Reflections," as mentioned, gets a ton. "Gerry and the
Pacemakers" comes up empty, but "Gerry & the Pacemakers"
(ampersand instead of "and") produces a bonanza. Primitive
search-engine-ology, to be sure, but keep trying and you're
likely to find what you're looking for. I tried to get a
result for Kane's Cousins doing Take Your Love, but got
nowhere til I searched for the label ("Shove Love" records)
and finally hit paydirt.
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Message: 3
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:22:34 EDT
From: Ronnie Allen
Subject: An open letter to John Clemente regarding your book
John,
All I can say is no matter what you do you can't please
all of the people all of the time.
However I can tell you that in my opinion (and the opinion
of most people I've talked to about it) your "Girl Groups"
book is a most EXCELLENT book and arguably the best ever
written on the subject!
I am not, by nature, generally an "impulse" buyer. But as you
know (because I personally told you) several months ago I was
in a Barnes and Noble store just "browsing." As soon as I came
upon your book for the first time. I took it off the shelf and
sat down and started reading. And reading. And reading!
It didn't take long for me to decide that this was a book that
I HAD to have?
What did I like most about it? For openers (in no particular
order) the pictures, articles and the extensive discgraphies!
It was obvious to me how much hard work you had put into the
book.
Yep it's true, "War And Peace" it ISN'T! But to tell you the
truth I never got much into THAT literary work. Somehow I
could never personally associate with it enough to enjoy it.
And yes, it was a bit LONG! But in my opinion if anyone is
looking for what I personally consider the BEST book available
on the subject of Girl Groups of the period that your book
covers then I think your book wins hands down!
Earlier this year I was most gratified to have to be able to
contact you. I found out that you were from New Jersey, not
too far from me (I live in Pennsylvania) and my radio friend
Mike Mikels. Happily I was able to put you in touch with him
and that led to you doing not one but two two-hour LIVE
interview shows with Mike Mikels -- on his Internet M-PAK
Radio station -- that showcased your book! Those two shows,
like your book, were EXCELLENT! I hope that many of the
Spectropoppers reading this message got a chance to hear
either of them or both.
On a personal note I truly enjoyed meeting you on in
Mike Mikels' studio on February 14th of this year. I remember
that date well because it was the night I presented my
three-hour interview MPAK show with Diane Renay. During that
show I had the pleasure and indeed the honor of actually talking
with you on the air face-to-face about the first of your two
upcoming shows with Mike which was scheduled, if I recall,
for the following week.
John, I wish you continuing success in your ALL future ventures.
It will be most-well-deserved! And I personally would love to
see more "Girl Group" (and maybe even a "Girl Solo Act") books
from you!
Ronnie Allen
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:02:07 -0400
From: Mike Edwards
Subject: Casino Classics 2; Gabby; Barbara English
Leonardo Flores writes:
> "I'm going to pick up that Bob Crewe "Jay" 45 on that
> Goldmine CD Vol #2 ASAP! I read about it in the book
> and I'm looking forward to hearing it. Thanks for the info!"
You're welcome, Leonardo. Consider it a thank you for the great
evening my family and I had at the Knitting Factory in September.
Gabby was spinning the sounds and we are still trying to figure
out how a gentleman from Peterborough or Northampton (or somewhere
like that) came to be in Hollywood playing northern soul on a
balmy September evening!
I hope you enjoy Casino Classics 2. We have mentioned The
Reflections and Jay (Traynor) but wait until you hear
Barbara English's "You Got Me (Sittin' In A Corner)", if
you've not already heard it - a sublime northern soul/girl
group crossover sound. This is a highly recommended CD.
Mike Edwards
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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 08:28:04 EDT
From: Ronnie Allen
Subject: Open letter to John Clemente (#2) ..... regarding the Echelons
John,
This open letter is much briefer than the previous one
I wrote about your "Girl Groups" book.
Earlier this week I had the distinct and most-unexpected
pleasure of meeting Eddie Brian, the man who produced a
doo-wop group called The Echelons. It didn't occur to me
until after we said our good-byes that this is the group
that YOU have sung with! It's possible that you or others
may have discussed them here but, if so, I may have missed
that discussion.
Could you tell us a little about the group, whether it still
is active and -- if so -- whether you still perform with them?
Ronnie Allen
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Message: 6
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:47:12 +0100
From: Richard Williams
Subject: Standing in the Shadows...
Kingsley: Standing in the Shadows of Motown will be screened
as part of the London Film Festival at the Odeon West End
(Leicester Square) on November 15 at 3.30pm and on November 16
at 6.30pm.
And may I say how much I've enjoyed the Reflections exchanges?
While I'm obsessing about session musicians, does anyone know
who played on "(Just Like) Romeo and Juliet"?
Richard Williams
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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 13:42:49 -0000
From: Don
Subject: WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
An interesting omission from these recordings is, I believe, the
first issue in the UK of "Uptown". Released on Fontana 267223 TF
in 1962, by Anita Lindblom, with accompaniment directed by Harry
Robinson (Lord Rockingham if I recall correctly). For some reason,
the Crystals version was not released in the UK until some years
later, maybe 1965, if memory serves.
Does any member have any info on Ms. Lindblom ? I had never heard
of her previous to this recording, n'or after it ...
On a totally different subject, but why make two posts when one
should suffice, I would appreciate any info available on a group
who went by the name "The Girls" .. 1966 is the release date,
Capitol the label .. # 5675. A side - A Dumb Song, written by
Keith Colley (Enamorado?) and Nancy Mantz, B side - Chico's Girl,
Mann and Weil, produced by Steve Douglas. No producer listed for
the A side.
Don
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Message: 8
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:59:40 -0000
From: Mark Frumento
Subject: In Shadow's shadow?
I've been slowly digging through the wonderfully bizarre
8 CD set Jonathan King - King of Hits (thanks Alan for
the recommendation). Most of the material is sung by
him and is a mixture of his early hit period and his
ongoing and very very weird recording career.
At the end of CD 5 are two decent songs by a group called
The Angelettes: "Don't Let Him Touch You" and "I Cried".
JK's commentary on the tracks states that these were from
his "Shadow Morton period".
While I would not classify the songs as classic girl group
sound they are an interesting update on that sound and I
can sort of see the Shadow Morton comparison.
Did the Angelettes record anything else or are they a
Jonathan King fabrication?
Brave souls looking for a very stange CD set should buy
King of Hits. It is not for the faint of heart. There are
some truly awful songs on it. But somehow "Who Let the
Dogs Out?" (JK's version before it was a hit) coming right
after "Everyone's Gone to the Moon" doesn't seem all that
out of place. Go figure. I'd say it's like having 8 volumes
of Kenny Laguna's Laguna Tunes.
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Message: 9
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:54:02 +0100
From: Phil Chapman
Subject: WALLPAPER OF SOUND - THE SONGS OF PHIL SPECTOR & FRIENDS
Don:
> An interesting omission from these recordings is, I believe, the
> first issue in the UK of "Uptown". Released on Fontana 267223 TF
> in 1962, by Anita Lindblom, with accompaniment directed by Harry
> Robinson (Lord Rockingham if I recall correctly).
There was also a version by Peter Gordeno (sung in the first person),
with John Barry and his orchestra. Parlophone 45-R 4913. (1962)
Dunno which came out first?
> Does any member have any info on Ms. Lindblom ?
I have some of her recordings in Swedish. They're generally jazz-ique
MOR things. Anita's considerable recorded output spans 1956-1981,
including versions of a couple of Beatles tunes (which guarantees her
a place on any internet search engine). There's a listing (in Swedish)
at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/denis.schwartz/anita.htm
Phil
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Message: 10
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:01:22 +0100
From: Mick Patrick
Subject: Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
Kingsley:
> ...any chance you could post the time and location for the Motown
> Shadows film showing. Would it be NFT? Thanks...
The Standing In The Shadows Of Motown documentary will be screened at the
Odeon West End 2 on Friday November 15th at 15.30hrs and on the following
day at the Odeon West End 1 at 18.30hrs. For tickets call 020 7928 3232 or
visit the London Film Festival website at http://www.rlff.com There'll be a
handful of Spectropop regulars at the Saturday show. Why not join us after
the film for some refreshment Kingsley?
Talking of Motown musicians, many of the players who later found fame in the
Funk Brothers - legendary drummer Benny Benjamin, for example - got their
start in the Todd Rhodes Orchestra, whose recordings for the Sensation label
are collected on a new CD. Benjamin's earliest work is featured on this
collection, along with the complete released output of Detroit songstress
Kitty Stevenson, the mother of the great Motown producer/songwriter Mickey.
Me? I have a taste for music of this early vintage. I dunno about other
inhabitants of planet Spectropop. Click here to view the tracklist and read
more about this release:
http://www.acerecords.co.uk/gotrt/sept02/cdchd856.html
Gotta go, two Bear Family CDs of UK and US girls singing in German arrived
while I was out earning a crust. What's it to be? Kiki Dee's "Why Don't I
Run Away From You" or "Walk On By" by Dionne Warwick? Decisions, decisions!
MICK PATRICK
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Message: 11
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 14:16:39 -0500
From: Dan Hughes
Subject: Re: Standing In The Shadows Of Motown
Mick mentions:
>....the mother of the great Motown producer/songwriter
> Mickey [Stevenson].....
Wonder if Smokey Robinson's "Mickey's Monkey" is in his honor??
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Message: 12
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 21:23:55 +0100
From: Phil Chapman
Subject: RE: Standing In The Shadows...
Richard:
> From memory, check "These Things Will Keep Me Loving You"....
Bullseye Richard! - This is up there with my all-time pop fav's.
It opens with 4s on the ride cymbal, then Motown's industrial
trademark rhythm kicks in with subtle but solid 8s on the hi-hat
throughout. I went overboard about this one in detail when we
were discussing riffs back in January. (Digest 338)
http://www.spectropop.com/archive/digest/m806.html
Admittedly, on "Money" the verses are 'tom' only, but I thought
that was to provide a tribal feel. The ride cymbal on the chorus
is almost louder than the tambourine. I like the way the beat is
back to front on the third verse....intentional?, I doubt it.
Occasionally, I've had the opportunity to explore Motown multi's,
and the drums usually comprise the complete kit, sometimes
supplemented by an overdubbed snare, or tom.
I've not really researched thoroughly, but it's my loose
understanding that Richard (Pistol) Allen specialised in
the lazy shuffle feels, and Benny Benjamin gave us most
of the driving 4s, leaving a legacy of classic intros and
breaks that have been freely sampled time and time again.
It's a pity he didn't live long enough to bask in the recognition.
> And anyway if you couldn't hear them on the original 45s,
> the way they were compressed and cut for radio, then to
> all intents and purposes they weren't there.
Ouch! - you're not getting away with that:-) For me, the magic of
Motown and Spector (in particular) depends as much on what you
can't discern as what you can. That's one of the main differences
with cover versions and TOTP backing tracks; you don't really notice
what's on the original, but it feels like there's something lacking
on a cover version.
Your comment brought to mind one of the more amusing anecdotal myths:
that when drumkits were introduced into the Caribbean, the only
experience of such things had been via US radio, and it was assumed,
somewhat logically, that the loudest drum (on the off-beat) must be
the largest! - hence the kickdrum role in ska, blue beat and reggae.
> Which is surely why even
> "Stop Her On Sight" and "Higher and Higher", great as they are,
> don't sound like Hitsville USA tracks.
I think we're both saying the same thing. I'm in total agreement
about the degree of talent & skill involved. I forgot to include
the wealth of writers, producers and arrangers. What I meant about
the 'sound' was, that on a purely technical level, no matter what
recording techniques are employed, if you assemble a rhythm section
in a garage-style 'live' room, with minimal separation, instruments
will clang and clatter in much the same way, according to the
acoustic properties of the room. Of the two examples you cite:
at the time, I thought "Stop On Sight" could easily have been a
Motown record, and I believe the San Remo Strings on Ric-Tic
(later released on Gordy after being bought up) were, in reality,
Earl Van Dyke & the lads earning some extra pocket money. In fact,
wasn't "Higher And Higher" EVD's crew as well? The only difference
being that they weren't actually recorded in the Hitsville room.
In other words, in my opinion, the authentic Motown sound couldn't
be achieved solely by the creatives; it required an indefinable
quality unique to that environment, which was borne of necessity
and circumstance, rather than design.
When Motown migrated to the smoother, drier Californian sound that
flourished in the early 70s, they effectively ditched the 'classic'
sound, because those early patterns don't really work on a dampened
snare and close-mic'd kick.
Of course, I'm bound to revise all this after seeing the film:-)
Phil
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Message: 13
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 15:32:12 -0400
From: James Botticelli
Subject: Re: Standing in the Shadows of Motown
Richard Williams wrote:
> "Stop Her On Sight" don't sound like Hitsville
> As ever, I stand to be corrected.
Yes it do, but rather than correct, I'll just disagree, it's
so much pleasanter. I submit that S.O.S. is quintessential
Motown despite its former Ric Tic status (I pride myself on
still owning the original 45 mint).
Exhibit A. Motown bought Ric Tic and reissued SOS on an
Edwin Starr Motown LP which has been re-reissued
if you will.
Exhibit B. In a blindfold test to my buddy's wife, we played
it for her and asked her to identify the sound.
Her reply immediately was "motown"
Exhibit C. "Higher and Higher", which you also mentioned, was
a Chicago tune which really did not try to imitate
Motown but rather represented state-of-the-art
Brunswick circa '67.
--
JB
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Message: 14
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 20:34:04 +0100
From: Mick Patrick
Subject: Re: Chico's Girls
Don:
> I would appreciate any info available on a group who went by the name "The
> Girls" .. 1966 is the release date, Capitol the label .. # 5675. A side - A
> Dumb Song, written by Keith Colley (Enamorado?) and Nancy Mantz, B side -
> Chico's Girl, Mann and Weil, produced by Steve Douglas. No producer listed
> for the A side.
The Girls were a Los Angeles sister act comprising Diane, Sylvia, Rosemary
and Margaret Sandoval. Curiously, I am in possession of a taped interview
with the lyricist Cynthia Weil in which she claims that she sang lead on
this version of "Chico's Girl". I tend to think she might be mistaken, but
you never know. Whatever, it's one GREAT record.
Groups of the same name also recorded for the Vodka, Leaf, Memphis, 20th
Century Fox, Atco and Scepter labels; some or none of which could be the
Sandoval sisters. Does anyone know?
Anyway, Debbie Harry's on TV in a minute and I have a pile of Private Stock
45s to stroke.
MICK PATRICK
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Message: 15
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 23:05:36 +0100
From: Martin Roberts
Subject: Reflecting on the Reflections
Hi 'My Mate',
I will play as requested "Out Of The Picture" to musica,
nice song with a good 'fade in' when space permits.
Stefan mentioned three sides of The Reflections arranged
by Calello: "Poor Man's Son"/"Comin' At You" Golden World 20
(memo to myself-put glasses on BEFORE reading labels);
both these co-prod Steve Venet with Rob Reece. Just as good
(maybe even better) is "You're My Baby (And Don't You Forget
It)" Golden World 19. Which is again arranged Calello AND
produced by Steve Venet and (Mick's babe) Helen Miller,
this pair co-wrote the song along with 'Pammy' Sawyer.
Martin
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